Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[Christian Miller]

No argument here.

But the well-tempered clavier is so called because the equal tempering was pretty new. At which point all the enharmonic equivalents become enharmonic equivalents. So for practical purposes that number was reduced to 12 pitches.

If you’re counting enharmonic equivalents, the number is infinite. If you’re not, the number is 12 major and 12 minor.

Not sure why people are out here arguing about this.

Well Temperaments are not equal temperaments. All keys are usable but some are … crunchier than others. Apparently ET didn’t catch on until around 1850 and even then there’s debate about how equal it really was.


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[pamosmusic]

Well Temperaments are not equal temperaments. All keys are usable but some are … crunchier than others. Apparently ET didn’t catch on until around 1850 and even then there’s debate about how equal it really was.


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There he is.

[Christian Miller]

And so much better than the previous ill tempered clavier, the keyboard that fights back.

If you ever go down the incredibly nerdy rabbit hole of temperament you will realise that’s less of a joke than you think…


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[Christian Miller]

There he is.

There’s probably an Adam Neely video.

Actually I think there was an Adam Neely video about how many keys there are. I don’t remember much about it, but I do remember that you are all wrong. So there.


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[mr. beaumont]

Well Temperaments are not equal temperaments. All keys are usable but some are … crunchier than others. Apparently ET didn’t catch on until around 1850 and even then there’s debate about how equal it really was.


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It all went downhill when we started trusting luthiers to put the frets in the "correct" places instead of tying on our own like a real guitarist.

[Christian Miller]

It all went downhill when we started trusting luthiers to put the frets in the "correct" places instead of tying on our own like a real guitarist.

Haha

Well….. you’re not wrong

In theory guitar should be ET, in practice you need dem squiggly frets like what Steve Vai has


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[Christian Miller]

Of course, horn keys are different from everyone else’s keys.

Write something in B major concert. See what happens. They like C flat major.

Tbh by that point you might as well dump the whole idea of key signatures and correct enharmony…. Which of course is what everyone does…


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[mjo]

And so much better than the previous ill tempered clavier, the keyboard that fights back.

That's funny as hell ...
Apparently Keith Emerson had the ill tempered .... he sure had some good fights with it -LOL

[Christian Miller]

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[emanresu]

Btw. The thread was about the problem that in first 7 years, kids learn a few basic chords but are swamped with learning keys.
Dunno if it is just an eastern Europe's problem - should have asked this first.

As a guitar teacher, the main concern is that they'd get the good technique and get the pieces memorized. Thats about 75% of the time.
I do try to get them to know about different things inside a scale. But since the theory teachers need me to focus on learning those basic I IV V chords in 30 keys (otherways they'd fail in their class),
there is very little time to get familiar with all the things happening inside a scale.

For example, an arpeggio of chords happen in a piece: I V VI III IV I V.
When I explain this to help them learn it fast and secure, the theory class actually have no part helping with those. No help at all. And our time has been consumed by learning the scales and I IV V7 in 10 keys...
Because all they do there is I, IV, V7 at this point of time...for 7 years. But in every key required for current year. When this sort of problem comes, I'm always in a dilemma "should I explain the theory here or just have them to memorize where the fingers go" - the latter is faster way to get the piece working. The first one takes lots of time and is not backed up by theory class. And would damage their grades there.

Again, probably just an issue with the traditions in eastern Europe's music schools.

[James W]

Btw. The thread was about the problem that in first 7 years, kids learn a few basic chords but are swamped with learning keys.
Dunno if it is just an eastern Europe's problem - should have asked this first.

As a guitar teacher, the main concern is that they'd get the good technique and get the pieces memorized. Thats about 75% of the time.
I do try to get them to know about different things inside a scale. But since the theory teachers need me to focus on learning those basic I IV V chords in 30 keys (otherways they'd fail in their class),
there is very little time to get familiar with all the things happening inside a scale.

For example, an arpeggio of chords happen in a piece: I V VI III IV I V.
When I explain this to help them learn it fast and secure, the theory class actually have no part helping with those. No help at all. And our time has been consumed by learning the scales and I IV V7 in 10 keys...
Because all they do there is I, IV, V7 at this point of time...for 7 years. But in every key required for current year. When this sort of problem comes, I'm always in a dilemma "should I explain the theory here or just have them to memorize where the fingers go" - the latter is faster way to get the piece working. The first one takes lots of time and is not backed up by theory class. And would damage their grades there.

Again, probably just an issue with the traditions in eastern Europe's music schools.

Just curious, why do you use the word 'swamped' when referring to learning new keys? As I said previously, learning new keys on the guitar doesn't really require mental gymnastics - in fact, it's not very difficult in principle, especially if you can get the kids to visualise the guitar as though they had a capo.

I'm also curious to know why you think teaching the kids more theory than they need would actually damage their grades in theory? It doesn't make any sense, to me.

[emanresu]

Just curious, why do you use the word 'swamped' when referring to learning new keys? As I said previously, learning new keys on the guitar doesn't really require mental gymnastics - in fact, it's not very difficult in principle, especially if you can get the kids to visualise the guitar as though they had a capo.

I'm also curious to know why you think teaching the kids more theory than they need would actually damage their grades in theory? It doesn't make any sense, to me.

I would teach them more theory but then I would have to neglect the work on new keys.

We don't use capo.

[ragman1]

chords in 30 keys

30 keys?

[emanresu]

30 keys?

Lets not go there again

[Reg]

Playing tunes in different keys or modes etc... does actually happen a lot...

It's fun to transpose or play a tune with the outro in Min. if original was maj or Dom. etc...

The skill of transposing is more about.... being able to actually do it... rather than learning tunes in all keys.

And Allan... the key(s) are not about scales... they are about a Pitch... the key of C maj or Cmin.... are both the Key of "C"... the quality or the organization of the rest of the pitches... are about what kind of Key it is.

You can create new and different relationships. Key sigs are not about keys, they are about notation. So yes there are 12 keys.

Tonal generally refers to relationships between pitches, and tonality refers to the other notes of a Key or tonic.
This is still the basic starting point...

[Reg]

emanresu... maybe already mentioned... but many musicians, (myself included), use Roman Numerals.
Like ... // I-7 bVI9 / II-7, V7#9 / I-9 bIII13 / II-9 V7alt //

So the key doesn't really matter.

[Jimmy Smith]

I can actually agree with the idea of 30 keys. (C + 7 sharps + 7 flats) x major and minor. 24 if you don't count enharmonic keys.

AA: minor keys are distinct from major keys. The key of C minor is not the same key as C major or Eb major. They're separate.

All music uses chromaticism. That doesn't change the base key or create a new one. Chromaticism is used over the key to add interest or make it more effective. Using a dominant chord as the 5 chord in minor doesn't create a new key. Playing blues scale over a major blues doesn't create a new key, it modifies the tonality.

[AllanAllen]

This thread is a complete shit show. We are all discussing different things. I love it.

[A. Kingstone]

emanresu... maybe already mentioned... but many musicians, (myself included), use Roman Numerals.
Like ... // I-7 bVI9 / II-7, V7#9 / I-9 bIII13 / II-9 V7alt //

So the key doesn't really matter.

Stop making sense.

[ragman1]

Lets not go there again

You posted it again, not me. And you are teaching people this rubbish? Does the school know?

[AllanAllen]

You posted it again, not me. And you are teaching people this rubbish? Does the school know?

I gather the school is making him teach this and he doesn’t like it.

[ragman1]

So why is he still there?

[pauln]

I gather the school is making him teach this and he doesn’t like it.

Alright, let;s solve this problem:
- teaching young children
- acquiring another cadence key each year, for grading
- time conflict for theory

Solution:
- children can do anything with enough motivation and fun
- learn all the cadences early
- use the saved time for theory

How:
Play verses of the cadence
Add verses for subsequent keys
Have them compose so a verses' lyrics indicate the roots of the cadence chords
Let them figure out the schema for how to turn root note letters and accidentals into lyrics
This will give time for theory (harmonized scale)

Result:
Annual full recital of Louie Louie played the right way... like this

[Litterick]

School teachers do not have the freedom to choose the curriculum. School is not like Dead Poets Society.

[emanresu]

School teachers do not have the freedom to choose the curriculum. School is not like Dead Poets Society.