Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[AllanAllen]

Modes are derivative from single scales. Tonality is way more interesting and varied than the pitches included in a single scale.

the minor four chord or major flat six are super common in the major key, but that doesn’t make the key not major.

Minor keys use bVII and viio and V7 and IV7 and iio and ii-7 and bVI and vio and VI7 … so the key is way cooler and more interesting than just assembling the notes from the related scale.

You’re not wrong that modes might be considered tonalities from a certain perspective, but the way they’re used and constructed is pretty different. It might seem arbitrary to say that A aeolian mode isn’t a tonality, but A aeolian mode or “A harmonic minor” are decidedly not the same thing as “the key of A minor.” The key of A minor can include all of them and other stuff too.

I see 12 keys like 12 coins. They each have a heads and a tails, major and minor. But you still only have 12 coins, even though they are two sided. You can count the faces and have 24, but that's not coins.

I don't see the connection between 30 key signatures existing and the need to practice in 30 keys. Gb and F# is like arguing with the cashier that a dollar is different than four quarters. Just pay them and get out of my way. Also, to circle back to my coins, there aren't 30 key signatures, there are 15. We have look at the music to see if it's major or minor.

You can't look at a signature of one flat and know if it's major or minor.

[mr. beaumont]

And then of course, for jazz lead sheets, you'll often see "Modal" tunes written without a key signature...

Is "No key signature" a key signature?

[Reg]

Yea... You need a Reference from which to define Key, but standard Maj/Min functional meaning from Groves...

"The Quality of a musical composition or passage that causes it to be sensed or gravitating towards a particular note, called the key note or the tonic. (see Tonality). One therefore speaks of a piece as being in the key of C major or minor, etc (see Major and Minor). The key of a movement commonly changes during its course through the process of modulation (see Modulation), returning to the home key before the end.
Key can also mean pitch, in the relative or absolute sense; the expression to sing "off key' is sometimes used to signify singing out of tune; to be 'on key' can mean to be at concert (i.e. standard) pitch."

If you read... Bakers Dictionary of Musical Terms and Harvard Dictionary of Music... but wait there's more LOL. It's not that complicated... we as Jazz players tend to expand the basic 24 keys modally and other crazy concepts. Functional concepts are a different subject... the tonic, subdom and Dom. and as usual... we as jazz player expand those concepts also...

[AllanAllen]

And then of course, for jazz lead sheets, you'll often see "Modal" tunes written without a key signature...

Is "No key signature" a key signature?

OHHHHHHHHH. You know at a gig I called Freddie Freeloader and someone asked what key, trumpet looked at his sheet and said C. Which threw me off because Miles did it in Bb so I assumed his sheet would match that. Then he said "Oh yeah, it's modal, do Bb." I didn't get to talk to him how C modal meant Bb. I also wouldn't consider blues modal...

Which is to say, Thanks Jeff, this thing that confused me a month ago makes a little bit more sense.

[mr. beaumont]

OHHHHHHHHH. You know at a gig I called Freddie Freeloader and someone asked what key, trumpet looked at his sheet and said C. Which threw me off because Miles did it in Bb. Then he said "Oh yeah, it's modal, do Bb." I didn't get to talk to him how C modal meant Bb. I also wouldn't consider blues modal...

Which is to say, Thanks Jeff, this thing that confused me a month ago makes a little bit more sense.

In a way, all blues tunes are modal...

Boy that post is like walking into a room, farting, and leaving, isn't it?

Re: Freeloader-- I haven't looked at a chart for that in ages, so I looked up, showed Bb concert...so your trumpet player would have seen C, since trumpet transposes (they play a C, we hear a concert Bb)

[pamosmusic]

OHHHHHHHHH. You know at a gig I called Freddie Freeloader and someone asked what key, trumpet looked at his sheet and said C. Which threw me off because Miles did it in Bb so I assumed his sheet would match that. Then he said "Oh yeah, it's modal, do Bb." I didn't get to talk to him how C modal meant Bb. I also wouldn't consider blues modal...

Which is to say, Thanks Jeff, this thing that confused me a month ago makes a little bit more sense.

Pretty sure his sheet saying “C” was not because it’s modal, but because he plays trumpet and his instrument transposes up a whole step from the concert pitch.

[James W]

We have look at the music to see if it's major or minor.

You can't look at a signature of one flat and know if it's major or minor.

What's your point?

[AllanAllen]

The bass player and I covered the C meaning my Bb, but he said no, it's your C. Then said the modal thing. I dunno, like I said, it was on a gig and we had to get going so we sorted it out and moved on.

Whatever the mixup was then, it's good to know that modal stuff can be noted in C.

[pamosmusic]

I see 12 keys like 12 coins. They each have a heads and a tails, major and minor. But you still only have 12 coins, even though they are two sided. You can count the faces and have 24, but that's not coins.

I don't see the connection between 30 key signatures existing and the need to practice in 30 keys. Gb and F# is like arguing with the cashier that a dollar is different than four quarters. Just pay them and get out of my way. Also, to circle back to my coins, there aren't 30 key signatures, there are 15. We have look at the music to see if it's major or minor.

You can't look at a signature of one flat and know if it's major or minor.

But you could actually pretty easily look at the music and tell if it’s major or minor (most of the time). Look at Segment. Key signature of 5 flats but full of G and A naturals. First and most frequent chord outlined in the melody is the tonic minor triad. That should say something about what’s going on in the tune.

Theres also the problem of jazz often “tonicizing” different key centers in the same song. But even if you’re looking for changes in key within the same song, you should be able to find it pretty quickly. Look at the melody to Autumn Leaves and find where that switches over to the minor … or maybe Fly Me to the Moon.

The key signature bears only a loose relationship to the actual tonality of the music.

[AllanAllen]

What's your point?

There aren't 30 key signatures. There are 15. Victor Wooten is wrong.

[pamosmusic]

The bass player and I covered the C meaning my Bb, but he said no, it's your C. Then said the modal thing. I dunno, like I said, it was on a gig and we had to get going so we sorted it out and moved on.

Whatever the mixup was then, it's good to know that modal stuff can be noted in C.

The old Charlie Parker Omnibook is notated almost completely without key signatures. That and the modal thing both go to the point, actually.

Key signatures are a practical expedient. The best key signature for a piece is often the key signature related to the major or minor key it’s in. But the best key signature for a piece is *always* the key signature that makes it easiest for a performer to read.

They are often not the same thing.

And I guess to this point … look at Segment in the Omnibook. No sharps or flats. It sure as heck isn’t in C.

EDIT: I think this also explains for Ragman why there is no separate “one sharp” key signature for A minor. Even assuming that a piece in A minor is comprised mostly of notes from harmonic minor, anyone reading music would have to squint at the page and make triple sure they had the key signature right … is that one sharp A minor or G major or C# altered or etc etc.

One sharp. That sharp is F#. Now let’s read this stupid piece.

Key signatures are a practical expedient.

Theres a nice thread active on sight reading and RP posted a really comprehensive and useful thing about working on sight reading. (Productive sight reading practice)

When you’re reading music, *everything* is a practical expedient.

[pamosmusic]

There aren't 30 key signatures. There are 15. Victor Wooten is wrong.

Again … it seems like we’re conflating “key” with “key signature.”

Regardless of how many keys you think there are, the key and the key signature are two different things.

[pauln]

Key signature - description indicated by accidentals
The circle of fourths/fifths may be wrapped around indefinitely either direction, the usual presentation includes the first enharmonic key signatures rarely used (usually converted to an enharmonic simpler key signature in practice). It makes sense to stop the count of key signatures at 15.

Key - description indicated by notes and modal tonic reference
This is where the distinction between relative major and minor modes is made by tonic reference. Based on 15 key signatures, there are 30 keys.

- it is possible to write music in any particular key signature (including accidentals as needed) and then transpose the pitch thing up or down by keeping the same key signature and adjusting the sounded pitches with modifications to the notes' accidentals (so write a tune in F with a key signature of one flat, then move the whole song up to "key of G" but keep the key signature of F with one flat and stamp accidentals all over the score so it sounds in G). Some ears would say the tune was now in the key of G despite the key signature indicating F.

- could also do it the reverse; keep the pitch classes the same but "transpose the score" to any key signature and then stamp it up full of accidentals to sound the unchanged pitch classes from before.

Maybe it is good that only the major and minor modes get to have their own key signatures and all the other modes and scales are left out. The key "A Dorian" would have the same key signature as G major. Other keys of scales might need both sharps and flats in their key signatures to maintain the "one of each note letter name" convention.

Of course the path back to sanity is noticing what key signatures were designed to do in the first place:

- allow a note to sound multiple pitches based on the key signature and additional accidentals in the measures (data compression!)
- allow the enforcement of the convention that all major and minor diatonic scales include one and only one instance of each and every one of the note letter names
- allow that all major and minor diatonic scales in all keys signatures when written in music notation present straight diagonal lines of notes in the staff (so the two places in these scales where the half steps occur don't present kinked or crooked places in the diagonal rows of notes, so much easier to read and read ahead)

[ragman1]

Is "No key signature" a key signature?

Definitely, like zero is a number.

[ragman1]

Oh no. I’m having flashbacks.

In which key?

[pamosmusic]

In which key?

nine flats

[ragman1]

I used to live in a flat. Flat 5. Seriously. It was the butt of many a humorous quip.

[AllanAllen]

Again … it seems like we’re conflating “key” with “key signature.”

Regardless of how many keys you think there are, the key and the key signature are two different things.

No, Victor Wooten is conflating them. He gets to 30 keys by talking about sharps and flats on a sheet of paper, key signatures, as if they are the keys. There's no sharps/flats, then 7 each of sharps and flats. Giving us 15, then we double that for minor and get to 30. He's talking about key signatures. But the question he asked was who practices in every key, followed by how many keys are there.

Did you watch the clip?

How do you practice Satin Doll in Db that's any different from C#. Why would you practice Satin Doll in F minor? Surely there are better things to do with your time.

I rest my case that 30 keys is for magical xylophone types.

[BWV]

Here is your 35 keys (36 actually including C major):

https://musescore.org/sites/musescore.org/files/Reger%20Supplement%20%231-35.pdf

which includes this handy modulation from C to B# major:

[pamosmusic]

No, Victor Wooten is conflating them. He gets to 30 keys by talking about sharps and flats on a sheet of paper, key signatures, as if they are the keys. There's no sharps/flats, then 7 each of sharps and flats. Giving us 15, then we double that for minor and get to 30. He's talking about key signatures. But the question he asked was who practices in every key, followed by how many keys are there.

Did you watch the clip?

Literally didn’t know there was a clip.

How do you practice Satin Doll in Db that's any different from C#. Why would you practice Satin Doll in F minor? Surely there are better things to do with your time.

I will admit you have completely lost me here. I have no idea what you’re asking and how it relates to the idea of key signatures being the same thing as “a key.”

If you’re implying you couldn’t change a major key song to a minor key, then you certainly could.

[pauln]

No, Victor Wooten is conflating them. He gets to 30 keys by talking about sharps and flats on a sheet of paper, key signatures, as if they are the keys. There's no sharps/flats, then 7 each of sharps and flats. Giving us 15, then we double that for minor and get to 30. He's talking about key signatures. But the question he asked was who practices in every key, followed by how many keys are there.

Did you watch the clip?

How do you practice Satin Doll in Db that's any different from C#. Why would you practice Satin Doll in F minor? Surely there are better things to do with your time.

I rest my case that 30 keys is for magical xylophone types.

Finally, a voice of clarity and reason.
(VW probably does practice Satin Doll in Db, C#, and F minor...)

[AllanAllen]

Literally didn’t know there was a clip.



I will admit you have completely lost me here. I have no idea what you’re asking and how it relates to the idea of key signatures being the same thing as “a key.”

If you’re implying you couldn’t change a major key song to a minor key, then you certainly could.

Yeah, if you missed the clip I get why you're lost. VW says you should practice in every key, but there are 30 keys. Then defines them using key signatures.

I'm saying, you don't need to practice everything in all 30 keys, 12 is enough. You could work out satin doll as a minor tune, but it's not a good use of practice time.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, if you missed the clip I get why you're lost. VW says you should practice in every key, but there are 30 keys. Then defines them using key signatures.

I'm saying, you don't need to practice everything in all 30 keys, 12 is enough. You could work out satin doll as a minor tune, but it's not a good use of practice time.

Not to be a total tool, but it’s worth mentioning that this is a forum of fretted, equal tempered instruments. Ask a trumpet player if Db and C# are the same thing and see what they say.

(My wife is a choral singer … the way other instruments think about pitch is very different than the way we do.)

And practicing satin doll in minor might not be a good use of anyone’s time, but that doesn’t mean the minor isn’t different than the major. You were in Scrapple From the Apple zone recently … is practicing that head in a major key useless? That tune is all vocabulary … great to practice those lines transposed to different places and tonalities.

The utility of a thing is not an argument for or against its existence.

[AllanAllen]

Not to be a total tool, but it’s worth mentioning that this is a forum of fretted, equal tempered instruments. Ask a trumpet player if Db and C# are the same thing and see what they say.

(My wife is a choral singer … the way other instruments think about pitch is very different than the way we do.)

And practicing satin doll in minor might not be a good use of anyone’s time, but that doesn’t mean the minor isn’t different than the major. You were in Scrapple From the Apple zone recently … is practicing that head in a major key useless? That tune is all vocabulary … great to practice those lines transposed to different places and tonalities.

The utility of a thing is not an argument for or against its existence.

Yeah, I agree with all this.

I feel like pulling licks is different than flipping the whole thing from major to minor. Of course, if someone chooses to flip Satin Doll to minor for their own curiosity, I'm not going to stop them, but it shouldn't be thought of as a best practice, like going through the cycle of fourths.

[emanresu]

From my post: "key signatures go up to 7 flats or sharps"

says who? again, spell Dbmin.

This comment has bugged me for a day.
I recall seeing a key signature on a score with a double flat and remember being shocked...
but it's such a vague memory.

edit: Theoretical key - Wikipedia
Yeah, the memory of such monstrosity has been buried for 20 years. Now it's awaken