Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[pamosmusic]

It's funny, I've been doing music for over 60 years. Yesterday morning I had absolutely no difficulty with keys, key sigs, or anything else. Suddenly I'm a numpty.

I don't believe you :-)

I have no trouble believing this.

[James W]

The notes of C major and A natural minor are the same. They are then adjusted with the G# accidental to render A harmonic minor.

No shit, but you've drifted from talking about keys and key signatures to talking about scales.

[mr. beaumont]

Gotta love when a thread pops up and my first reaction is "Oh, ok, I think I get what we're talking about and I can help" and then 4 pages later I'm questioning if I know anything about anything.

[pamosmusic]

a more correct way of putting it would be:

while it sounds like there are only 12 major and 12 minor keys, the reality is that there is an infinite number of keys. to properly analyse pieces of music functionally, enharmonics must be considered. example: when a piece in Db major borrows chords from it's parallel minor it is mandatory to attribute the correct parallel minor key Db minor with 8 flats and not it's enharmonic equivalent C# minor.

A fair point.

I accept your terms and consider this matter resolved.

[ragman1]

There are 12 keys, each with its relative minor. That's how it's normally stated and taught. So, yes, technically, there are 24 keys but only 12 key signatures. So each key signature symbolises two keys. But those two keys are related, not separate, hence the use of only one key signature.

Without accidentals, the relative minor scale would be the natural minor which has the same notes as the major scale. The harmonic minor has no separate key signature. The #7 note is produced by adding the #7 accidental.

That's what's in the books, tutorials, and all the rest of it. I'm not moving from there.

[A. Kingstone]

Remember when jazz was cool?

[pamosmusic]

Gotta love when a thread pops up and my first reaction is "Oh, ok, I tink I get what we're talking about and I can help" and then 4 pages later I'm questioning if I know anything about anything.

Im pretty sure this stems from a language barrier and a simple typo but who knows.

Also worth mentioning that even lots of countries with similar systems of notation and harmony approach music differently. Everyone in Hungary knows solfège hand signs. A key a year? Seems odd to me, but what do I know.

[ragman1]

Remember when jazz was cool?

Nope :-)

[James W]

There are 12 keys, each with its relative minor. That's how it's normally stated and taught. So, yes, technically, there are 24 keys but only 12 key signatures. So each key signature symbolises two keys. Those two keys are related, not separate, hence the use of only one key signature.

Good! It seems we've got somewhere.

[mr. beaumont]

But the well-tempered clavier is so called because the equal tempering was pretty new...

And so much better than the previous ill tempered clavier, the keyboard that fights back.

[ragman1]

Good! It seems we've got somewhere.

Good, I'm glad you've caught up.

[pamosmusic]

There are 12 keys, each with its relative minor. That's how it's normally stated and taught. So, yes, technically, there are 24 keys but only 12 key signatures. So each key signature symbolises two keys. Those two keys are related, not separate, hence the use of only one key signature.

Without accidentals, the relative minor scale would be the natural minor which has the same notes as the major scale. The harmonic minor has no separate key signature. The #7 note is produced by adding the #7 accidental.

That's what's in the books, tutorials, and all the rest of it. I'm not moving from there.

NB

Theres this thing that happens where people are talking about the way things are done (particularly in education related subjects) and cite their years of experience, but don’t realize they’re also citing the number of years it’s been since they checked in on how stuff is actually done and taught.

Experience is only an advantage if one tends to be curious and interested in changes in pedagogy and the perspectives of others.

[pamosmusic]

And so much better than the previous ill tempered clavier, the keyboard that fights back.

The keyboard:

“Db? lol go for it ”

[ragman1]

since they checked in on how stuff is actually done and taught.

But it hasn't changed. Only more loud voices with their various theories. And who's interested in that?

[AllanAllen]

Okay, here is a serious question from me.

Why are C major and A minor not enharmonic equivalents? If modes don't count why does this?



The way I see it, the road to infinite keys starts after 12, you can't just arbitrarily stop at 24 to "have the minors."

[AllanAllen]

The wikipedia definition of key is that it's the scale. The whole first page of google hits says it's the home scale.

In music theory, the key of a piece is the group of pitches, or scale, that forms the basis of a musical composition in Western classical music, art music, and pop music.

Keys in Music

StudyBasshttps://www.studybass.com › lessons › harmony › keys-i...














In music a key is the major or minor scale around which a piece of music revolves. A song in a major key is based on a major scale. A song in a minor key is ...

Keys in music


Musiccahttps://www.musicca.com › keys














A key is a group of notes on which a piece of music is based. A piece of music can use all the notes in the key, or an extract from the notes and sometimes ...

[ragman1]

The way I see it, the road to infinite keys starts after 12, you can't just arbitrarily stop at 24 to "have the minors."

You can subdivide anything. You could break down a flower into the tiniest constituents of its atoms. But sensible people don't :-)

[pamosmusic]

Okay, here is a serious question from me.

Why are C major and A minor not enharmonic equivalents? If modes don't count why does this?



The way I see it, the road to infinite keys starts after 12, you can't just arbitrarily stop at 24 to "have the minors."

Modes are derivative from single scales. Tonality is way more interesting and varied than the pitches included in a single scale.

the minor four chord or major flat six are super common in the major key, but that doesn’t make the key not major.

Minor keys use bVII and viio and V7 and IV7 and iio and ii-7 and bVI and vio and VI7 … so the key is way cooler and more interesting than just assembling the notes from the related scale.

You’re not wrong that modes might be considered tonalities from a certain perspective, but the way they’re used and constructed is pretty different. It might seem arbitrary to say that A aeolian mode isn’t a tonality, but A aeolian mode or “A harmonic minor” are decidedly not the same thing as “the key of A minor.” The key of A minor can include all of them and other stuff too.

[pamosmusic]

The wikipedia definition of key is that it's the scale. The whole first page of google hits says it's the home scale.

Like with most other topics, Wikipedia is going to give you high level definitions of things that don’t hold up in practice.

And I’d probably go further here and say that Wikipedia is wrong in this case.

[Bop Head]

Only 4 pages? Disappointing ...

[pamosmusic]

But it hasn't changed. Only more loud voices with their various theories. And who's interested in that?

I mean … I teach small children on a daily basis, but sure.

[mr. beaumont]

So, against my better judgement, I will attempt to make some sense of this...

The OP, several pages ago, did make an amendment saying he was talking about key signatures...

So you have C major, no sharps or flats, and then you have 7 possible key signatures each for sharps and flats, ranging from 1 sharp/flat up to 7.

So the basic answer is 15. There's 15 possible key signatures.

As for the rest of the discussion, I'd just say any time I've seen a piece that uses a harmonic minor scale, it's just the key signature of whatever the natural minor would be and the appropriate accidental for the raised 7th.

[ragman1]

Blue Bossa is fun. The melody is written in natural minor but the chords are harmonic minor. Unless you take the Cm chords as m6. And the key sig is 3 flats. That's all I know :-)


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[pamosmusic]

Blue Bossa is fun. The melody is written in natural minor but the chords are harmonic minor. Unless you take the Cm chords as m6. And the key sig is 3 flats. That's all I know :-)

Oh no. I’m having flashbacks.

[pauln]

And so much better than the previous ill tempered clavier, the keyboard that fights back.

I'm imagining the pianist giving the fingered keys a little sideways pressure unconsciously trying to bend the pitches to sound right.
Or a modified piano with pedals like a steel guitar that makes the slight corrections on the fly (to avoid excess wear on the keys).