Alternative to all formal theory considering keys

[garybaldy]

The only thing I understand from the OP is T S D

[mr. beaumont]

The only thing I understand from the OP is T S D

If I was taught that was I'd have P T S D.

[princeplanet]

if i was taught that was i'd have p t s d.

lol!

[emanresu]

Sorry, 15 keys. I'm also bad at math.

My duty as a guitar teacher is to practice those in lessons. I guess "to help with theory class's program" - that's the message I've received from theory teachers.
So, when a 10-year-old struggles with 4 flats melodic minor on the guitar, the only reason for this is to help them with the grade in another lesson.
There is 0 usage for such key in guitar in this age. That program actually wastes valuable time for useful keys and all the juicy magical harmony
that can be explained and practiced instead. It's boring, useless and waste of time all at once.

[ragman1]

I know, right?, at least an extra 3, but I'm thinking F# and Gb both get used, say more than C# or Cb. I could be wrong...

No, that's as vague as your interview memory!

I'd want to see this interview with Bird where he says 13 keys. Googling it produces nothing at all. In fact, I found several interviews where he's quite clear about 12 keys, nothing more.

[ragman1]

Sorry, 15 keys.

Well, that could be the three already talked about, as in C#/Db, D#/Eb and F#/Gb. I suppose it would make it clearer to the young students that, for example, F# isn't quite the same as Gb when written, especially if they're doing #'s and b's separately.

My duty as a guitar teacher is to practice those in lessons. I guess "to help with theory class's program" - that's the message I've received from theory teachers.
So, when a 10-year-old struggles with 4 flats melodic minor on the guitar, the only reason for this is to help them with the grade in another lesson.
There is 0 usage for such key in guitar in this age. That program actually wastes valuable time for useful keys and all the juicy magical harmony
that can be explained and practiced instead. It's boring, useless and waste of time all at once.

I absolutely agree with you. And I know, I've taught kids about that age in a school too. I do know they'd never have been interested in academic theory for the sake of it.

In any case, they really only wanted to play like their latest guitar hero. And I can't remember who that was either :-)

[James W]

No, that's as vague as your interview memory!

I'd want to see this interview with Bird where he says 13 keys. Googling it produces nothing at all. In fact, I found several interviews where he's quite clear about 12 keys, nothing more.

IIRC, there is an interview mentioned in Carl Woideck's book where Bird says there are 13 keys.

[James W]

Sorry, 15 keys. I'm also bad at math.

My duty as a guitar teacher is to practice those in lessons. I guess "to help with theory class's program" - that's the message I've received from theory teachers.
So, when a 10-year-old struggles with 4 flats melodic minor on the guitar, the only reason for this is to help them with the grade in another lesson.
There is 0 usage for such key in guitar in this age. That program actually wastes valuable time for useful keys and all the juicy magical harmony
that can be explained and practiced instead. It's boring, useless and waste of time all at once.

There are not 15 keys. There are 24. Also, I am not sure why a ten-year-old shouldn't know about a key of four flats, maybe you could explain that it is exactly the same shape on the fretboard as one with no flats? (Putting aside the fact that a melodic minor would require other accidentals).

I don't get why you see some keys as of more use than others at a particular age. I say just throw the whole circle of fourths/fifths clock-face diagram at the ten-year old, and ditch the ridiculous notion of giving them a new key per year or whatever it is you mentioned. It's not that hard to understand.

[ragman1]

IIRC, there is an interview mentioned in Carl Woideck's book where Bird says there are 13 keys.

I've just bought the Kindle edition. Watch this space...

[emanresu]

I don't get why you see some keys as of more use than others at a particular age. I say just throw the whole circle of fourths/fifths clock-face diagram at the ten-year old, and ditch the ridiculous notion of giving them a new key per year or whatever it is you mentioned. It's not that hard to understand.

The comfortable keys for early years of guitar is up to 3 sharps, and 1 flat.
And also, I wouldn't give a piece with 5 flats even in the 7th year - my paycheck is not big enough to cover the medical costs to recover from all the whining.

Not hard to understand, yeah. The understanding part is not hard. But it is not enough.

edit: oh, lets fix this - I meant key signatures. not keys. my mistake.

[ragman1]

my paycheck is not big enough to cover the medical costs to recover from all the whining.

:-)

I meant key signatures. not keys. my mistake.

I thought that's what you meant but in practice it amounts to the same thing. No prob.

[James W]

I've just bought the Kindle edition. Watch this space...

[ragman1]

OK, his mistake. See, another famous muso who don't know theory properly. Predictable, I suppose.

So that's that out the way :-)

Well done for finding it, James, outstanding!

[pauln]

How many keys....?

[rpjazzguitar]

With some trepidation I'll try to be serious about how many keys there are.

For common enough reading, you'll see up to 5 flats and 4 sharps. Rarely, you'll see 6 flats or more than 4 sharps. On really unlucky days you might see some wiseass arranger go into 7 sharps or flats, but it's not worth worrying about.

If you know that much, you won't be making sharp/flat errors.

For soloing, depending on how you approach finding notes, you may have to consider enharmonic equivalents. What follows is relevant to an approach where you know the names of the notes in the chords you use and their extensions.

Maybe you know Db cold. So, for example, if the chord is Dbm7b5, you know the chord tones instantly. If, OTOH, the chord is spelled C#m7b5, you don't have time to think, "oh, that's the same as Db". If you try to do it that way, you're at risk of dragging the tempo. So, you need to know all of the usual enharmonic equivalents. That is, two names for each of the black keys, Gb Db Ab Eb and Bb. If you're playing standards out of the RB you won't see a lot of A#'s, but if you're playing a wide variety of charts, it actually does come up.

[A. Kingstone]

Music isn't fun anymore.

[garybaldy]

If I was taught that was I'd have P T S D.

I think we all have after reading the OP.

[emanresu]

I think we all have after reading the OP.

Alright. I'm out. Breath freely.

[starjasmine]

My own experience at 10-13 years of age in the USA decades ago was to learn to sight read whatever was on the page without understanding WHY the sharps or flats were in the key signature. I don't recall whether I ever saw more than 5 sharps or flats, but I'm sure that I did see the keys of Bma/G#mi/Dbma/Bbmi and read them on trumpet. I didn't learn any theory whatsoever till I became a music major in college. Lack of theory did not stop me from gigging on guitar and electric bass from the age of 10 years or so - all that mattered was that I could play what was required, in time and in tune, not that I knew why it worked.

[ragman1]

Welcome to JGO.

12 keys, as normal. Thank you very much .

[ragman1]

Except, of course, if you're doing atonal or modal, in which case it's blank. Looks like C major but it's not, it's NSK, which is No Specific Key. So maybe there are 13 after all.

It took them quite a long time to introduce zero as a number. So maybe 1 to 10 should really be 11 numbers.

Yours,

Mr. Coo-coo

Ignore me, I like to have fun :-)

[Jimmy Smith]

Nice job on that ridiculous OP. :P

I agree with James that there are 24 keys. I disagree with Vic but props to him for calling out the whole room. :P

[ragman1]

24 keys

Ah, but that's the rub. I assume your extra 12 keys would be the minors as apart from the majors.

But you see the problem there. Very few tunes are written in the natural minor. A minor, for example, would almost always have an E7 in it which indicates A harmonic minor. Which in turn implies that the key signature would be one sharp, which is G#.

What we have to ask is why that isn't so, apart from the confusion with the one-sharp key sig for G major. There are no separate key sigs for harmonic minor. I leave the why of it with you but the fact is they're not written that way, the #7 being indicated with an accidental.

So as far as key signatures are concerned, there are 12. And, for some reason, by convention we don't separate key sigs, at least verbally, from 'keys'. So there we are :-)

[AllanAllen]

Why 24 and not 336 keys?

Major, Harmonic Minor, Melodic Minor and natural minor and their modes give 12x7 keys.

Why limit it to 336. I have this book full of exotic scales.

[pamosmusic]

I’m not sure this is how keys work