Finding a Secondary dominant's Best Scale

**ajrdileva** · 05-24-2010, 07:33 PM

Hi again,
Since my post in Reinterpreting the Altered scale has become a bit controversial I will give you guys another example of how to apply the "Decoding the Circle of Vths" chart concept to find the best scale for secondary dominants. (and I know that most players already know the solution, but it is not the solution but the approach what's important)

Let's say you have an E7 chord in a song in C major (functioning as the V7/VI, E7 is a secondary dominant. The V7 of A)

If you use a Mixolydian scale E7 will sound as V7 of A and you'll be suggesting a modulation to A Major (at least for the moment)
To find a better scale for E7 you can use "node displacement"

1. Graph the Ionian mode in the key of C
2. Displace the nodes that do not fit the E7 chord to the correct chord-tones for E7 (in this case it would be only G going to G#)

As you can see the graph is now an E Mixolydian b9b13, which would be a better scale to make the E7 sound as V7/VI

If you want to verify the structure you can use mCircle:

**monk** · 05-24-2010, 08:07 PM

Seems like a lotta work.

E7 is either the V7 of A major or the V7 of A minor.

In the key of C it would either be E7b9 if it moves a fourth to Am, if it moves up a half step to F, it could be a plain old vanilla E7. E9 is foreign to the key of C and would signal a modulation.

Knowing the Cycle of Fourths and V-I (V-i) relationships in all 12 keys precludes needing to graph anything.

Regards,
monk

**ajrdileva** · 05-24-2010, 09:40 PM

I must agree on some things and disagree on others.

Every chord in a tonal piece usually has an specific function (unless of course it was meant to be ambiguous)

If E7 is functioning as a V7/VI (even if it resolves deceptively to F), even if it is labeled as E7b9, it will still take a b13 and therefore a Mixolydianb9b13

I agree that graphing might not be necessary in this case but When you get to modal music and more complex structures graphing can easily show best fit chord scales and other structures to be applied.

Originally Posted by monk

Seems like a lotta work.

E7 is either the V7 of A major or the V7 of A minor.

In the key of C it would either be E7b9 if it moves a fourth to Am, if it moves up a half step to F, it could be a plain old vanilla E7. E9 is foreign to the key of C and would signal a modulation.

Knowing the Cycle of Fourths and V-I (V-i) relationships in all 12 keys precludes needing to graph anything.

Regards,
monk

**monk** · 05-25-2010, 12:30 AM

Actually the proper name for the scale is Phrygian Dominant.

It's the fifth mode of Harmonic minor.

If you're going to try to sell something at least get your terminology correct.

Regards,
monk

**musicalbodger** · 05-25-2010, 03:35 AM

Hey ajrdileva

you're getting really fu**ing boring you know. You don't even have the integrity to mention that you're advertising your own products.

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 07:51 AM

I have already said that I was trying to get feedback. The software at mDecks is free to use. What's wrong with you guys?

Originally Posted by musicalbodger

Hey ajrdileva

you're getting really fu**ing boring you know. You don't even have the integrity to mention that you're advertising your own products.

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 07:57 AM

The proper name... says who?

Mixolydian b9b13 is as often used as Phrygian Dominant, plus Phrygian is supposed to be a minor mode so the term Phrygian Dominant sounds always a little bit contradictory.

Anyways, since you know so much about terminology...
I am looking for standard names of the 4th and 5th modes of the Blues Scale.
Anyone has an idea?

Mode over bIII of the Blues Scale is a Blues Dorian Hexatonic.
Over b7 is a Mixolydian Hexatonic.
The #4 is a Raga Hamsanandi (India)

Thanks.

PS. Why is everyone so rude in this forum?

Originally Posted by monk

Actually the proper name for the scale is Phrygian Dominant.

It's the fifth mode of Harmonic minor.

If you're going to try to sell something at least get your terminology correct.

Regards,
monk

**Reg** · 05-25-2010, 09:13 AM

Is your system for being told what scale, mode... collection of notes, a short cut for analysis for those who don't have the skills? Best Reg

**musicalbodger** · 05-25-2010, 09:25 AM

Originally Posted by ajrdileva

I have already said that I was trying to get feedback. The software at mDecks is free to use. What's wrong with you guys?

Only after I faced you with it on another thread. As for everyone on this forum being rude, they aren't. I, and a few others, just happen to be somewhat outspoken when something appears to be not quite kosher. If you had come on to this forum explaining that you wanted feedback on your methods then the response would have been completely different. But you came on here pointing out a supposedly 3rd party website without any mention that you were connected with it. That's why you got short shrift here.

As for your methods, Reg has just put it more succinctly than I have previously when he asks if your method is "...a short cut for analysis for those who don't have the skills?" As I said on another thread you started, once versed and proficient in the basics of scales, chords and arpeggios any player who wishes to extend their knowledge and playing is going to work this out for themselves, AND, by doing so will gain far more benefit in the process.

**gersdal** · 05-25-2010, 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by ajrdileva

I have already said that I was trying to get feedback. The software at mDecks is free to use. What's wrong with you guys?

The system looked intersting, and I clicked into your site. I was very quickly required to pay a fee, so free is maybe a relative term.

Conclusions so far:
- Interesting, but I do not understand what you are explaining with this system
- I tried to look at your documentation to see what your system does
- I needed to pay for that
- I don't want to pay because I don't know what it does

Cheers

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 09:40 AM

You don't have to pay for it. It is free. We don't ask for emails or anything else. It is just a javascript app. available to everyone.

May be you went to the link where you can buy the 'Decoding of Vths' package with the chart and the ebook. (That you have to pay)

Here's the link to the mcircle app:
mCircle

There's not much to using mCircle. It just find structures and subsets embedded in them. For example you can find all major triads in the Melodic Minor Scale. Any structure inside any other structure.

Originally Posted by gersdal

The system looked intersting, and I clicked into your site. I was very quickly required to pay a fee, so free is maybe a relative term.

Conclusions so far:
- Interesting, but I do not understand what you are explaining with this system
- I tried to look at your documentation to see what your system does
- I needed to pay for that
- I don't want to pay because I don't know what it does

Cheers

**fep** · 05-25-2010, 09:50 AM

This looks so complex to me that I don't want to put in the effort to even understand it.

If I knew that this method was used by some real players that I admire, like Wes Montgomery or George Benson. I might put in the effort. I'm interested in how the greats learned.

You have no credibility to me and your system looks like it was designed by a mathematician or an engineer, not by a musician. I want to study the methods of musicians, not engineers.

However if you can impress me with your incredible playing and/or compositions, especially if you're innovative as a result of your approach; then I might be interested in investing my time to see if there is anything of value in your approach.

I hope you can appreciate this mind set of someone trying to learn the guitar.

**Goofsus4** · 05-25-2010, 10:02 AM

Advertising!

**derek** · 05-25-2010, 10:18 AM

While I find this mildly interesting, I also find it overly complicated. That would be my feedback. I certainly understand the musical theory geekiness that is involved in it, and from that angle, think it is pretty cool. My thinking is, there is enough overly complicated stuff in jazz without adding to it.

However, as Goofsus4 pointed out on the other thread, there is plenty of Martinoesqueness to it. Just like Pat's stuff, I think this is only going to interest a small portion of the jazz community, which is a pretty small community to begin with. Perhaps some youtube vids demonstrating some of these charts over real tunes/progressions would help?

With regard to the advertising bit, people who are participants here receive the grace to pimp whatever products they may have. People who just post here about their stuff typically get the response you have. I would invite you to stick around and participate, as this really is the most helpful and civil group on the net I know of. Good luck with it.

**saponsky** · 05-25-2010, 10:19 AM

I tried your web site but it lacks documentation, I really don't understand a thing about what the heck the app is showing. I believe the mathematician foundation of the app makes it interesting so you should make an effort and put on more documentation. What the app does? what is its purpose? How to use it? applications for music? melodic approaches, harmonic approaches? What do you mean by 'decoding the circle of Vs' ??? That's my feedback about the app. I'm a software developer plus a musician so I gave you both feedbacks, hope it helps.

**mr. beaumont** · 05-25-2010, 10:34 AM

Originally Posted by ajrdileva

PS. Why is everyone so rude in this forum?

I don't think everyone is rude, you gotta look at it a little differently.

This is a small forum. If harmony central is a stadium full of people with a common interest, this is a corner bar, the kind that has old style on tap and a clock set 20 minutes ahead so the bartender can get home a little earlier at the end of the night. People here are protective of it, and there's a culture of calling people out when we feel like someone's here for their own interests and not to truly be part of the community.

Whether or not that's true about you, your posts have come off that way...you even posted on another thread about something completely different about than what the OP questioned, and it was more of the stuff that your program is about.

I suggest you take the time to sit back, read some posts, get an idea of how things flow around here, and make some posts that aren't directly related to your invention. Then you might be made to feel a bit more welcome.

Peace.

**fep** · 05-25-2010, 10:41 AM

A solicitor walks up to my house, clearly ignores the no soliciting sign I have posted, knocks on my door and tries to sell me something I don't want.

I tell him I have a sign that says no solicitors and pioint to it right there. He says he's not a solicitor. I tell him to leave.

He tells me I'm rude.

Go figure

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 11:05 AM

Fair enough.

Here's a way of using mCircle.

Let's say you want to improvise over an A7b13 chord.
Most players would say you can use notes from the A mixob13 scale.

But that is not enough. Any advanced player knows that the shapes and patterns you create and use in your improv (and how you develop them) gives coherence and strength to the solo.

So, if the approach you take in how to view that mixob13, includes shapes and patterns and motivic development, it can change the way you sound.

For example: consider thinking of the mixob13 as the juxtaposition of two simple structures with a powerful (clear) sonority.
Let's say: A minor triad and An augmented triad

Now you can go to mCircle:
In the main structure popup you select Mixob13
In the Substructure popup you choose Minor Triad

And you get there're two options: one on the V (E minor in the case of our A7b13 chord) and one on the IV (D minor)

Now you can look for an augmented triad in Mixo b13
In the main structure popup you select Mixob13
In the Substructure popup you choose Augmented Triad

And you'll find there are three options (is actually only one because of the symmetry for the augmente triad): the I (Aaug) III(C#aug) and the bVI (F aug) in the case of our A7b13 chord. Of course they're all the same.

So now you can choose 2 of those structures as you've planned:
Let's say: E minor and F aug

Now when you improvise or comp over an A7b13 you can think of playing a juxtaposition of Em+Faug instead of the Mixob13.
If you keep the patterns inside each triad you will be using clear, strong recognizable sonorities.

For example:

Hope this clarifies... maybe not... it seems so obvious to me...

Thank you so much for the feedback.

Originally Posted by saponsky

I tried your web site but it lacks documentation, I really don't understand a thing about what the heck the app is showing. I believe the mathematician foundation of the app makes it interesting so you should make an effort and put on more documentation. What the app does? what is its purpose? How to use it? applications for music? melodic approaches, harmonic approaches? What do you mean by 'decoding the circle of Vs' ??? That's my feedback about the app. I'm a software developer plus a musician so I gave you both feedbacks, hope it helps.

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 11:11 AM

I don't get it you guys...

What's the big deal?
I just wanted some feedback for my free online app.

It is FREE!!! you know....

Originally Posted by fep

A solicitor walks up to my house, clearly ignores the no soliciting sign I have posted, knocks on my door and tries to sell me something I don't want.

I tell him I have a sign that says no solicitors and pioint to it right there. He says he's not a solicitor. I tell him to leave.

He tells me I'm rude.

Go figure

big bang · 05-25-2010, 11:33 AM

are you a mathematician?

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 11:39 AM

I'm a musician.

Originally Posted by big bang

are you a mathematician?

**mr. beaumont** · 05-25-2010, 11:43 AM

Originally Posted by ajrdileva

I don't get it you guys...

What's the big deal?
I just wanted some feedback for my free online app.

It is FREE!!! you know....

Then you really should have went about things differently:

"Hi jazz players!

I've been part of a team that has developed a new software for graphically representing some advanced ways of looking at pitch sets that can be used to improvise over some more complex changes. It's free, and I'd love if you'd check it out and give me some feedback. (insert linky)

Cheers,

your name"

See the difference? Your first post would be like me joining and saying "hey have you guys heard this great new guitarist jeff matz? You can download his latest recordings for free here (insert linky)"

It doesn't matter if it's free, the posts have come off as that guy who only wants to talk about himself. I can't make it much clearer for you as to why some folks have taken a negative response to your posts...

**ajrdileva** · 05-25-2010, 12:30 PM

Point taken.
I must agree. My apologies.

Originally Posted by mr. beaumont

Then you really should have went about things differently:

"Hi jazz players!

I've been part of a team that has developed a new software for graphically representing some advanced ways of looking at pitch sets that can be used to improvise over some more complex changes. It's free, and I'd love if you'd check it out and give me some feedback. (insert linky)

Cheers,

your name"

See the difference? Your first post would be like me joining and saying "hey have you guys heard this great new guitarist jeff matz? You can download his latest recordings for free here (insert linky)"

It doesn't matter if it's free, the posts have come off as that guy who only wants to talk about himself. I can't make it much clearer for you as to why some folks have taken a negative response to your posts...