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Usually, when players are referencing altered tonalities, they will cite tritones, altered scales, H/W W/H scales, Dorian 1/2 up and whole step down. Although I enjoy each of these tools, I frequently resort to maj7 arps for simplicity.
For example, over D7 alt consider:
Ebma7, E, F#, G, A, Bb, C, Db
The arp I have found most frequently in transcriptions is a 3rd up (F# over D7)
Found in Benson Billies Bounce, and Martino Oleo and especially Trumpeter David Berger’s Contemporary Jazz Studies. It does tweak the ear a bit, but the resolutions are fun to work out.
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01-25-2024 10:51 AM
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Interesting ….
Originally Posted by StevenA;[URL="tel:1312653"
but I’m not completely following you
did you mean play Ebmaj7 scale
(Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb)
over the D7alt ?
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I like maj7 a half step below the I.
So over Dm7 G7 Cmaj7, play, Dm7 Bmaj7, Cmaj7.
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I don’t think I understand what you mean here. Are you spelling out notes? Or are those other major 7 chords that you like? Originally Posted by StevenA
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Yep bVI on V7… generally I think of that as a type of extended IIm7b5 sound
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Dumb question:
do you mean bVI of the V7 (in C: for G7 you play EbM7)
Eb G Bb D
[b13, R, #9, b7] of G
or bVI of the 1
(in C: for G7 you play AbM7)
Ab C Eb G
[b9, 11, b13, R] of G
writing that down, I am going to guess EbM7.
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A detailed description regarding the use of major arpeggios over dominant chords is contained in my method "CHITARRA JAZZ E IMPROVVISAZIONE MELODICA" ( "MELODIC IMPROVISATION FOR JAZZ GUITAR").
The videos showing this way of playing in practice are on my YouTube channel:
At the moment only the Italian version of my method is published but within a few months the version with English text will also be available.
Ettore - www.quenda.it
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sorry, not a scale, but all maj7 Originally Posted by pingu
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Both Originally Posted by sm80808
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Steven, you should start a big arpeggio superimposition thread. Could be fun.
There's SOOO much in these sounds...
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In summary, : over a G7 chord you can play:
- AbMaj9 arpeggio
- DbMaj9 arpeggio
And developing this system you can play the other 5 arpeggios from the Ab Major key:
Bbm9, Cm(b9), Eb9, Fm9 and Gm7b5 arpeggios.
As we know the Ab Major scale DO NOT INCLUDE the B natural so, if we play these arpeggios over a G7 chord, the major third is missing.
Instead we play the C note.....obtaining a "temporary mode suspension" that is very original and "open".
We know that the other option (it is explained in dozens of books...) is to play the arpeggios of the melodic minor scale over the dominant chord.
But for beginners it is much, much easier to play major scales and arpeggios than the superlocrian scale and all the arpeggios derived from the melodic minor scale.
Ettore
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I got these from Jack Zuckers Dodecaphonic charts, basically take the harmonized chords from major, melodic, harmonic and harmonic major, Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
move each chord in minor 3rds, and they can all sub for dominant 7 chords
that are in those harmonized scales
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Okay got it. I'm there now. Originally Posted by StevenA
Yeah that maj7 a half step up is a nice one. Harmonic minor, 7b9(sus) thing.
I really like the major 7s from the minor-third subs because they get some unusual sounds in them.
So that's Fmaj7 over G7, Abmaj7 over G7, Bmaj7 over G7, and (less frequently) Dmaj7 over G7. All kind of odd sounds, but really cool.
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George Benson uses a similar approach in his ‘art of jazz guitar’ video. On the chord progression Cm - F7 - Bb, he plays a line derived from a Bmaj7 arpeggio over the F7. Then he says he can substitute it with any maj7 arp related to B, and uses Emaj7 over the F7. He implies he could use any related maj7 arp going back up that cycle from B to E and so on (so he seems to be talking about a cycle of fourths).
I got intrigued by this and tried maj7 arps in all 12 keys to replace the F7. It’s surprising how many sound ok, I think there were only about 4 that didn’t sound much good (I think mainly because they sounded too similar to the existing chords).
Of course Benson plays these lines quite fast, that certainly helps too.
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Ah! Yeah I've had the same experience. Not with this specifically ... but generally, as long as you find the off-ramp into the chord you're trying to hit, it's the weird stuff that sounds good. The stuff that sounds a little too much like the existing chord sounds a little aimless and confusing. Originally Posted by grahambop
Kind of the opposite of what we're trained to think.
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Ah!
I've just done what graham's done and tried them all. Intriguing is exactly the word I was going to use too. Some work better than others but that was predictable. I don't think any of them are a complete reject although a couple are highly suspect.
I suppose it all depends on the player and the context. As we know, a loud sax belting it out can override almost anything.
It starts with AM7 and ascends chromatically (including CM7) to AbM7 although some are played higher or lower than others. Incidentally, this is all take 1. I didn't try to make them fit, I just went where the fingers wanted to go.
My faves are Bb, Db, Eb, E, F, F# and Ab. The two funny ones are B and D. The rest pass :-)
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Nice that you posted the maj7 auditions. Originally Posted by ragman1
Interesting that Bmaj wasn’t a fave as it might be the most prevalent among players, at least in the few hundred transcriptions I’ve read, maybe because it’s a1/2 step away from the target chord.
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Proof of the pudding is in the eating :-) Originally Posted by StevenA
Yes. When I read what Jeff said I tried it out right away and thought it was okay for precisely that reason, because it's a 1/2 step away from CM7.Interesting that Bmaj wasn’t a fave as it might be the most prevalent among players, at least in the few hundred transcriptions I’ve read, maybe because it’s a1/2 step away from the target chord.
But then I played all of them and I think there's a big difference between the M7 arp and a simple major triad. The B triad, for instance, sounds quite good over the G7 but the BM7 sound is more like Ebm which isn't the same thing at all.
I actually think this is quite important and applies in different ways to all of them.
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Going on from that, if we write the M7's as their iii sound, they come out like this (from AM7 up to AbM7):
C#m
Dm
Ebm
Em
Fm
F#m
Gm
Abm
Am
Bbm
Bm
Cm
Looking at my 'faves' (the ones I thought sounded best) it's quite interesting. I did NOT work this out in reverse before I started.
BbM7 is Dm which, over G7, is obviously good. Similarly:
DbM7 = Fm which is a good sub.
EbM7 = Gm which is the blues sound.
EM7 = Abm which, of course, is the alt sound.
FM7 = Am which is absolutely fine.
F#M7 = Bbm which is another alt sound.
AbM7 = C#m which probably works because it's a chromatic move from Dm to CM7. It's one of the ones that works best.
I left out CM7 before, which is Em. That's also a well-known sub over the whole 2-5-1, Dm-G7-CM7.
The two I didn't think were much good were
BM7 = Ebm which might be seen as a chromatic bridge between Dm and Em (iii sub for CM7). But I didn't care for it.
DM7 = F#m which is possibly the worst and doesn't go anywhere.
The rest you can play with yourself :-)
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Once more for the people in the back.
Everything sounds good over everything.
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Sure, if you've got a wonky brain :-)
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Got me Originally Posted by ragman1
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Isn't that the definition of harmolodics? Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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More like paranoid schizophrenia, if you ask me. As experienced by chimpanzees. It's one of those thoughtless soundbites, like 'the only scale you need is the chromatic scale'.
Not even Schoenberg wrote 'anything over anything'.
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I’d say everything sounds bad over everything if you suck
but I’m a Brit and treasure negativity
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