Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Tal_175]

Well found, but this is just pure melodic minor, nothing more.

Attachment 107575

Look more carefully.

[Bop Head]

When you enclose (surround) the notes of a minor 6 chord (let's for simplicity say Cm6: C Eb G A) with the notes of its accompanying diminished chord (from the sixth + diminished) you get both sixths (major and minor) and the major seventh. Another way to look at it.

[ragman1]

You're quick! I deleted it. Didn't see the nat F before the E.

Okay, he altered it. So what? He's not allowed to do that? Are you saying a player's got to only play the 'pure' scale all the time?

This is BS, Tal, and you know it!

[Christian Miller]

I know that 4on6 solo reasonably well. Wes flips between the Dorian and melodic minor on the G-7 chord. One time he uses F# whole tone.

He does similar stuff on Nica’s Dream.

Often he’s playing an extended arp sort of idea, m13 or m9(maj7).

that one note - F/F# is harmonically powerful.

Djg pointed out he plays much more out of m6 (like the swing and bop guys) on his incredible jazz guitar (1960) recording of the same tune. Much less Dorian. Wes was a lot more bop in the 50s (I mean who wasn’t?)

So, this model (mixed minor) might not be true of Wes in general, just this era (mid 60s). The ND solo was 1965 iirc.

[ragman1]

I don't care what he did. He probably just thought of it at the time to get near the E. Who knows what he was thinking? Not me, not you. And if he was here, maybe not even himself.

You'll be telling me next that if you asked him what he did he'd explain it in the very language you're using here. I think not, Moriarty.

[Tal_175]

You're quick! I deleted it. Didn't see the nat F before the E.

Okay, he altered it. So what? He's not allowed to do that? Are you saying a player's got to only play the 'pure' scale all the time?

This is BS, Tal, and you know it!

To be honest I wasn't that quick, you first said there was no Melodic Minor, then said it was only melodic minor, lol, at that point I responded.

Are you saying a player's got to only play the 'pure' scale all the time?

That made me laugh. That's why I always regret responding to ragman's posts. No Ragman, I've been saying exactly the opposite the whole time.

[Tal_175]

OK people so humor me. You're practicing lines over Yesterdays. You are working on the final turnaround. One bar Emin7b5, one bar A7alt, then back to top Dmin6. This applies to people who work on building lines and applying vocabulary over the chords of the tunes they practice. If you are one of those who just meditate and let the notes come to you, this question may not be relevant to you.

Emin7b5: You might be considering lines for C7 or you might be thinking G melodic minor.
A7alt: You might be thinking Eb7 lines, Bb MM lines or C# diminished etc.
Dmin6: Dorian or Melodic minor or something darker.

So I'm guessing you either have certain line building ideas that you apply to these scales/arpeggios or you have pieces of vocabulary for each scales and you build lines with those. Do you ever mix and match these ideas from alternative scales for the same chord to build your lines or do you stick with one particular view per each chord?

[GuyBoden]

OK people so humor me. You're practicing lines over Yesterdays. You are working on the final turnaround. One bar Emin7b5, one bar A7alt, then back to top Dmin6. This applies to people who work on building lines and applying vocabulary over the chords of the tunes they practice. If you are one of those who just meditate and let the notes come to you, this question may not be relevant to you.

Emin7b5: You might be considering lines for C7 or you might be thinking G melodic minor.
A7alt: You might be thinking Eb7 lines, Bb MM lines or C# diminished etc.
Dmin6: Dorian or Melodic minor or something darker.

So I'm guessing you either have certain line building ideas that you apply to these scales/arpeggios or you have pieces of vocabulary for each scales and you build lines with those. Do you ever mix and match these ideas from alternative scales for the same chord to build your lines or do you stick with one particular view per each chord?

When I was heavily into mm, I'd have used these:

Em7b5 would be E Locrian Nat 2 scale. mm mode 6
A7alt would be A Super Locrian scale. mm mode 7
Dmin6 would be D Melodic minor scale. mm mode 1

I've played Yesterdays a lot over the years, I was taught to use each melodic minor mode separately, maybe it's an English thing, I don't know.

[ragman1]

To be honest I wasn't that quick, you first said there was no Melodic Minor, then said it was only melodic minor, lol, at that point I responded.

That made me laugh. That's why I always regret responding to ragman's posts. No Ragman, I've been saying exactly the opposite the whole time.

You're not that sharp, Tal, honest. You'd like to be, but unfortunately... I could go over it but I won't. Anyway, you've got three pages out of it. Hooray!

[Tal_175]

You're not that sharp, Tal, honest. You'd like to be, but unfortunately... I could go over it but I won't. Anyway, you've got three pages out of it. Hooray!

The reason I avoid responding to you Ragman is that you often don't get a crucial nuance of the discussions in threads and everything you write (and boy do you write) comes across as strawman arguments. Moreover your lack of comprehension takes nothing away from your confidence. You're always arrogantly sure of yourself regardless of how clueless you sound like. I'm sure you're honest and fully believe things you say but going forward I'll try to make no exceptions to my principle, which is never reply to Ragman's posts.

[pamosmusic]

You're not that sharp, Tal, honest.

I don’t know man. You’re the one who said melodic minor was major with the root sharpened.

[Christian Miller]

When I was heavily into mm, I'd have used these:

Em7b5 would be E Locrian Nat 2 scale. mm mode 6
A7alt would be A Super Locrian scale. mm mode 7
Dmin6 would be D Melodic minor scale. mm mode 1

I've played Yesterdays a lot over the years, I was taught to use each melodic minor mode separately, maybe it's an English thing, I don't know.

No I think that’s fairly mainstream way of teaching ii V Is

I mean, it sounds good*. It’s the sort of thing you hear Bill Evans doing.

It’s not the bop way to do it. Actually even Mark Levine mentions that in the Theory Book. Boppers use Locrian on iim7b5.

but discussing jazz in these terms and the idea of telling people to play jazz in these terms makes me a bit depressed. It’s like teaching to paint by numbers. Reducing it to a system. You can identify features of music via theory, but you need more than that to make music.

I was thinking today that systems are seductive things for many reasons. I think we need to be careful of systems.

And there’s so many interesting things to hear in the music.

*if you can play jazz

[AllanAllen]

Emin7b5: You might be considering lines for C7 or you might be thinking G melodic minor.
A7alt: You might be thinking Eb7 lines, Bb MM lines or C# diminished etc.
Dmin6: Dorian or Melodic minor or something darker.

Em7b5 would be E Locrian Nat 2 scale. mm mode 6
A7alt would be A Super Locrian scale. mm mode 7
Dmin6 would be D Melodic minor scale. mm mode 1

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

[jameslovestal]

The reason I avoid responding to you Ragman is that you often don't get a crucial nuance of the discussions in threads and everything you write (and boy do you write) comes across as strawman arguments. Moreover your lack of comprehension takes nothing away from your confidence. You're always arrogantly sure of yourself regardless of how clueless you sound like. I'm sure you're honest and fully believe things you say but going forward I'll try to make no exceptions to my principle, which is never reply to Ragman's posts.

I'm going to hold you to your no exceptions. Please feel free to do the same.

[pamosmusic]

OK people so humor me. You're practicing lines over Yesterdays. You are working on the final turnaround. One bar Emin7b5, one bar A7alt, then back to top Dmin6. This applies to people who work on building lines and applying vocabulary over the chords of the tunes they practice. If you are one of those who just meditate and let the notes come to you, this question may not be relevant to you.

Emin7b5: You might be considering lines for C7 or you might be thinking G melodic minor.
A7alt: You might be thinking Eb7 lines, Bb MM lines or C# diminished etc.
Dmin6: Dorian or Melodic minor or something darker.

So I'm guessing you either have certain line building ideas that you apply to these scales/arpeggios or you have pieces of vocabulary for each scales and you build lines with those. Do you ever mix and match these ideas from alternative scales for the same chord to build your lines or do you stick with one particular view per each chord?

Definitely mix and match.

[Christian Miller]

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

yeah I mean, minor sounds good, if you can play strong minor lines. Don’t have to be your lines.

all that scale stuff is the icing on the cake. And you have to internalise it. But the cake is being able to play good lines that make sense and swing.

Listen to the greats do it and 80% of the time they are playing a mix of natural and harmonic minor over the ii v I. It’s not even altered really. The boppers, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell etc. but you can’t write theory books about that haha.

but use your ears and you can’t go wrong.

[Tal_175]

When I was heavily into mm, I'd have used these:

Em7b5 would be E Locrian Nat 2 scale. mm mode 6
A7alt would be A Super Locrian scale. mm mode 7
Dmin6 would be D Melodic minor scale. mm mode 1

I've played Yesterdays a lot over the years, I was taught to use each melodic minor mode separately, maybe it's an English thing, I don't know.

Yes, these are the standard MM based chord-scale choices for these chords. Let's take the first chord. Another choice for that chord is C dominant scale (or G Dorian, E locrian etc). When I practice, until recently I kept these choices separate. So I'd either play lines that have F# over that chord or lines that have F (b9 or nat 9). I would avoid mixing and matching lines that have F and F#. What I'm now realizing is that this attitude was an unnecessary limitation. You can make good lines by mixing them as well. Moreover this can also lead to simplification of the fretboard organization. I'm still experimenting with this, but I have reasons to believe that a more compact chord-scale view of the fretboard is possible as a result of this observation.

[AllanAllen]

yeah I mean, minor sounds good, if you can play strong minor lines. Don’t have to be your lines.

all that scale stuff is the icing on the cake. And you have to internalise it. But the cake is being able to play good lines that make sense and swing.

Listen to the greats do it and 80% of the time they are playing a mix of natural and harmonic minor over the ii v I. It’s not even altered really. The boppers, Grant Green, Kenny Burrell etc. but you can’t write theory books about that haha.

but use your ears and you can’t go wrong.

This is good to hear, no way I can track all that. It's hard enough for me to remember the chord names. Someone asked me the changes to Blue Bossa at a jam while we were playing it. I can play the thing in my sleep by now, but telling them the changes I was lost. The song has gone from a series of chord names to a sound in my head. Really hard for me to describe, it was also weird to experience.

My point is, I don't think I have the capacity to track the changes chords, the chord I can use over it and the scale and what mode to use....

[Tal_175]

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

The example would be 3 or 4 bars. The last two chords of the tune going back to the top: ...| Emin7b5 | A7alt || Dmin6 | ...
If it's split bar minor ii V (like in the second bar of the tune), I treat it either as A7 or play Dmin6 for the first 4 bars (same for minor blues).

[Christian Miller]

This is good to hear, no way I can track all that. It's hard enough for me to remember the chord names. Someone asked me the changes to Blue Bossa at a jam while we were playing it. I can play the thing in my sleep by now, but telling them the changes I was lost. The song has gone from a series of chord names to a sound in my head. Really hard for me to describe, it was also weird to experience.

That's the ticket!

Do this with more tunes. The more you do it, the easier it gets

My point is, I don't think I have the capacity to track the changes chords, the chord I can use over it and the scale and what mode to use....

Yeah, tbh esp for fast stuff I chunk everything down a lot to II V's and then have stuff I can just wheel out and sound good. Most professional players have a bag of this stuff and get super fluent at applying it wherever applicable. You can work on that with transcribed language too without having to think about any bloody scales. Which I'd recommend.

On the guitar, I would focus VERY heavily on making a link between simple chord forms and melodic lines (transcribed or original). This will do far more for your changes playing than working in scale positions. Later on you can fit scales around chord forms or use chord subs to get fancy ass jazz school sounds, but focus on the chord forms.

Most guitarists think of them as two seperate things - as in, "here's the chords for the song, here's the scale to solo on". Good jazz guitarists understand they are closely related.

[Bop Head]

You guys can really track all this while playing over 2 bars? Seems like an awful lot of processing for something that fits completely in the D- (F major) pitch collection.

Recently I would rather start with triads.

Em7b5 is Gm6/E so I'd use a Gm triad arpeggio as base. Then I can resolve the 5th of that Gm (D) one halfstep down to the third of A7 (C#). This alone outlines the minor II V. The minor one halfstep above the dominant gives me an altered sound -> Bbm triad over A7. C# = Db (be tolerant Christian LOL), the 3rd of A7 is the minor 3rd of Bb7, so start a Bm arp on the Db. Mix this with passing notes, chromatic approach notes from below and enclosures and you do not have to think about what type of minor at all. After you have practiced this stuff slowly for a while while figuring out different options and variations it will show up in your playing.

EDIT: This was written before watching Christian's video.

[AllanAllen]

The example would be 3 or 4 bars. The last two chords of the tune going back to the top: ...| Emin7b5 | A7alt || Dmin6 | ...
If it's split bar minor ii V (like in the second bar of the tune), I treat it either as A7 or play Dmin6 for the first 4 bars (same for minor blues).

I thought you meant bars 2 and 3. Bar 2 being a ii V turnaround to bar 3. Anyway, now that that's cleared up. Did you work out all 3 minors in 5 positions (something like minor CAGED)?

Reason I ask is on a minor tune, I'll just use the G shape bumped so it's a minor and then add in every chromatic but the major 3rd and 7th. Except Autumn Leaves I'll use the maj7th.

I guess my repertoire doesn't have many minor tunes... maybe 5 out of 40 are minor. Looking at this setlist.

[Tal_175]

I thought you meant bars 2 and 3. Bar 2 being a ii V turnaround to bar 3. Anyway, now that that's cleared up. Did you work out all 3 minors in 5 positions (something like minor CAGED)?

The short answer is yes. I think everybody has a somewhat different way of organizing the fretboard for playing the changes. When I'm working on a chord type, I like to see the fretboard in relation to the chord itself. So if the chord is A7alt, I play voicings that get the sound of the chord up and down the fretboard. I see the chord tones of the voicings intervallically w.r.t the root (#9, 7, 3 etc). These voicings and the notes around them become my fretboard reference for the A7alt scale. I can also see the fretboard as 5 position Bb Melodic Minor but that is more a secondary view. Then I work on lines over the chord and into the following chord. It's a lot of work but that's mostly what I do in my practice sessions. Mix chord movements and lines over a tune with the metronome. Not sure if it's the best way to work on this stuff but it's fun and fairly complete.

Reason I ask is on a minor tune, I'll just use the G shape bumped so it's a minor and then add in every chromatic but the major 3rd and 7th. Except Autumn Leaves I'll use the maj7th.

I guess my repertoire doesn't have many minor tunes... maybe 5 out of 40 are minor. Looking at this setlist.

Summertime (or Four on Six) is a great minor workout tune for me. That and Yesterdays. I don't seem to get tired of these two tunes very easily.

[AllanAllen]

That's the ticket!

Do this with more tunes. The more you do it, the easier it gets



Yeah, tbh esp for fast stuff I chunk everything down a lot to II V's and then have stuff I can just wheel out and sound good. Most professional players have a bag of this stuff and get super fluent at applying it wherever applicable. You can work on that with transcribed language too without having to think about any bloody scales. Which I'd recommend.

On the guitar, I would focus VERY heavily on making a link between simple chord forms and melodic lines (transcribed or original). This will do far more for your changes playing than working in scale positions. Later on you can fit scales around chord forms or use chord subs to get fancy ass jazz school sounds, but focus on the chord forms.

Most guitarists think of them as two seperate things - as in, "here's the chords for the song, here's the scale to solo on". Good jazz guitarists understand they are closely related.

Scrapple from the apple over Groovin High. Clever. Wait, is that Scrapple?

[Christian Miller]

Scrapple from the apple over Groovin High. Clever. Wait, is that Scrapple?

Yes

Groovin' High on Blue Bossa - Go! And then do scrapple ;-)

You can do 'bebop' on the Cm, Fm and Eb. Don't be freaked out about the gaps.