Is the Melodic Minor Scale Really a Thing in Jazz?

[Tal_175]

I’m not sure why using them for line building makes any difference.

If I’m building lines over a tonic minor chord, I might use melodic minor. I might use it with a passing note, I might use a line cliche, I might use Dorian with or without passing notes.

What is the importance of the line building distinction you’re trying to make?

I'm making a distinction between an 8 note scale vs 7 note scale with a passing note. Here the added note is harmonically relevant hence not a passing note.
For example over D minor you can play an F major line (making it a D dorian) or an F augmented line (making it a D MM), to me that's different than treating that C# as a passing note.

[Tal_175]

So, in this context melodic minor is a chord scale that's applied in certain ways over certain chords.
To rephrase the chords in question (more can be added):

- Tonic minor: MM with the same root vs Dorian
- Half diminished: MM from the 6th vs Dorian from the 6th (ie Locrian)
- Altered : MM from the 7th vs Dorian starting from b9 (ie tritone dominant)

But if MM is a collection of notes in these contexts why not consider the collection to be the union of the scales (ie one added note).

[ragman1]

It can be helpful to see it as a major scale with the third flatted if you work out how to place it on the fretboard. Similar to deriving dominant seventh chord drop 2 voicings (and others) from diminished voicings you can derive your melodic minor scales from the major scales you know.

It's not useful to me. I see a place where a melodic minor sound works and I'm in there like a shot. I know how to play it, what it sounds like, and how to use it. I don't give a hoot about much else.

More playing, less thinking!

[Christian Miller]

I mean it’s not that crazy a thing is it? Here’s a lute piece from the early 18th century… melodic minor ascending form was often used descending…



and as far as the added note thing goes, music back generally had an even number of eighth notes in a bar too. You don’t have add chromatics to make a scale come out right.

[pamosmusic]

I'm making a distinction between an 8 note scale vs 7 note scale with a passing note. Here the added note is harmonically relevant hence not a passing note.
For example over D minor you can play an F major line (making it a D dorian) or an F augmented line (making it a D MM), to me that's different than treating that C# as a passing note.

Yeah that’s how I understood you, and in that context it feels like a distinction without a difference. One eight note scale w two sounds vs two scales with one sound each.

Two ten dollar bills are admittedly not the same thing as one twenty dollar bill. Having one as opposed to the other is actually very helpful in some situations, but their value is the same.

[Tal_175]

There are real problems and invented problems. This is an invented one.

It might be all right to explain to a beginner that the melodic minor, or 'jazz minor', is a major scale with the root sharpened. It might help him remember and work it out but ultimately it's merely confusing and he'll doubtless discover that. For practiced musicians the melodic minor is a scale to itself with a dedicated use.

Why make it more complex than that?

I see. Then this discussion doesn't apply to you. This discussion is for people who don't build lines either ONLY using MM sound or ONLY Dorian sound (in the case of tonic). Most actual music don't fit into this category. Wes Montgomery interchanged these sounds within the same lines often for example.

[pamosmusic]

I think the thing that distinguishes Barry’s eight note scale from yours is that it’s actually harmonized in thirds and gives a distinctive harmony vs the melodic minor (the alternating m6 and diminished chords). Yours is choosing a different seventh in a different situation, or different ninth or whatever the case may be.

[Tal_175]

Yeah that’s how I understood you, and in that context it feels like a distinction without a difference. One eight note scale w two sounds vs two scales with one sound each.

Two ten dollar bills are admittedly not the same thing as one twenty dollar bill. Having one as opposed to the other is actually very helpful in some situations, but their value is the same.

The difference to me is in the fretboard organization. Treating these as two separate scales and internalizing these scales and their harmonies on the fretboard is quite different than treating them as one 8 note scale and using it for line building, technical practice etc.

[Christian Miller]

So, in this context melodic minor is a chord scale that's applied in certain ways over certain chords.
To rephrase the chords in question (more can be added):

- Tonic minor: MM with the same root vs Dorian
- Half diminished: MM from the 6th vs Dorian from the 6th (ie Locrian)
- Altered : MM from the 7th vs Dorian starting from b9 (ie tritone dominant)

But if MM is a collection of notes in these contexts why not consider the collection to be the union of the scales (ie one added note).

I think this is a false choice. It’s up to you and your analysis and understanding of the players you like. So name a player and may be possible to be more specific about their choices.

If you were asking about Trane, for instance, you’d find the diminished scale is more frequently employed on dominant chords than for many other players of that era. It really depends.

for example that Nica’s dream recording has three soloists with different approaches to this type of situation.

the answers as always, are out there on the records.

otoh if you find the eight note understanding works for and helps you, go for it. I don’t see why our opinions are important.

[ragman1]

I see. Then this discussion doesn't apply to you. This discussion is for people who don't build lines either ONLY using MM sound or ONLY Dorian sound (in the case of tonic). Most actual music don't fit into this category. Wes Montgomery interchange these sounds within the same lines often for example.

All right, then you can use it, alter it, mix it in with something else. You can do the same thing with eggs. But whatever the result an egg is still an egg.

I think you're wriggling, Tal :-)

[pamosmusic]

I see. Then this discussion doesn't apply to you. This discussion is for people who don't build lines either ONLY using MM sound or ONLY Dorian sound (in the case of tonic). Most actual music don't fit into this category. Wes Montgomery interchange these sounds within the same lines often for example.

This isn’t a gotcha, but can you post an example from a solo?

I think that would help distinguish what you’re talking about from what I’m thinking you’re talking about.

[Tal_175]

I think this is a false choice. It’s up to you and your analysis and understanding of the players you like. So name a player and may be possible to be more specific about their choices.

If you were asking about Trane, for instance, you’d find the diminished scale is more frequently employed on dominant chords than for many other players of that era. It really depends.

for example that Nica’s dream recording has three soloists with different approaches to this type of situation.

the answers as always, are out there on the records.

I agree the answer is in the records which very often aren't explained very well by he used this scale on this bar and that scale on the other bar as the source of note collections (again we are not talking about scales up and down).

[Christian Miller]

I mean it clearly is an eight note thing sometimes, the melody of Chelsea Bridge is a good one.

[Christian Miller]

I agree the answer is in the records which very often aren't explained very well by he used this scale on this bar and that scale on the other bar as the source of note collections (again we are not talking about scales up and down).

Some players are really scalar and others aren’t.

[Tal_175]

This isn’t a gotcha, but can you post an example from a solo?

I think that would help distinguish what you’re talking about from what I’m thinking you’re talking about.

Sure, this took me a minute to find but I'm sure many great examples can be compiled relatively quickly from many players (at 1:15 over Gm):

[pamosmusic]

Sure, this took me a minute to find but I'm sure many great examples can be compiled relatively quickly from many players (at 1:15 over Gm):

Oh okay cool. Yeah that feels to me just like what I’m talking about and we’re describing it differently.

[Christian Miller]

I would think of Wes as one of the players who mixes up the melodic minor and Dorian as a matter of course. Maybe he got it from Charlie Christian.

His solo on Nica’s dream is a good one for this. I like to use that tune in this context because it has clear m(maj7) sounds in the tune. It’s interesting that a few of the players continue to use b7 here including Junior Cook on the original recording and Wes.

ooh that reminds me, early Dorian use, the melody on the bridge of Douce Ambiance (Django) Notice that these swing era players all emphasised the 6 so the b7/7 was more about passing tones. Also six appeal (Charlie christian iirc.)

[Bop Head]

Barry would call this ‘tritones minor’

The point that often gets missed in theory books is that you don’t have to stick to the melodic minor for this to work.

Yes the guy showed an example of an "altered" lick by Cannonball using "dorian".

[Tal_175]

otoh if you find the eight note understanding works for and helps you, go for it. I don’t see why our opinions are important.

They are important enough to make it a fun topic of discussion on the forum but not important enough to solely inform how I practice (which can be said about most thread starter posts perhaps).

[Christian Miller]

Yes the guy showed an example of an "altered" lick by Cannonball using "dorian".

Well Cannonball was quite a melodic minory player

Check out what he is doing on the first two chords of Limehouse (again remember Stephane G was melodic minoring it on this tune back in the mid 30s)

no idea what Tranes up to here haha

[Christian Miller]

It's not useful to me. I see a place where a melodic minor sound works and I'm in there like a shot. I know how to play it, what it sounds like, and how to use it. I don't give a hoot about much else.

More playing, less thinking!

I think some might benefit from a little less playing and a lot more listening.

[Tal_175]

As a side note regarding melodic minor on the b9 of a dominant/altered scale:

There is always this discussion if the altered scale should be considered separate from melodic minor. I saw a video recently by a young British sax player who analyzed Solos by Dexter and Cannonball and said that they were using minor language on the b9 of a dominant for altered sounds (Can't find the link ATM). I experimented with this and I have to say it is true (at least for my taste): If a line sounds good in Ab minor it will create a nice altered sound on a G7. It will sound much better and more logical than if you were connecting notes of the altered scale arbitrarily (which might lead to the same result by random of course). As I said: matter of my blues based taste. Try it out.

That is also what I was describing in the OP under the Altered Scale category if I understand your post correctly.

[Bop Head]

There is an interesting thing in 'Round Midnight, meas. 3 that I would have like to ask Barry Harris about. In the original Monk changes there is no II-V (Im7 to IV7) but a static Im6. The melody is a Im7 arpeggio up root to seventh resolving to the sixth. That would be "dorian". (The line repeats up a fourth in meas. 5 this time over a II-V, IVm7 to bVII7.)

[Christian Miller]

They are important enough to make it a fun topic of discussion on the forum but not important enough to solely inform how I practice (which can be said about most thread starter posts perhaps).

I think your idea is somewhat valid for Wes fwiw. I used to think all classic players were what I called ‘mixed minor’ players. I think still it’s mostly true of the pre CST era of players. (The 60s is on the cusp, of course.)

but melodic minor does pop up throughout the history. I could probably find some in pops if I looked hard enough…

The more I transcribe the less I feel can make sweeping statements (and you know how much I LOVE those haha). I can make helpful simplifications and prioritise things for students, especially if I know they are interested in a specific style or player.

[Bop Head]

Werner Pöhlert's "Grundlagenharmonik" ("Basic Harmony") taught me 30 years ago that in jazz minor is 1-2-b3-4-5 plus the whole chromatic between 5 and 1. But that is maybe a bit arbitrary.

EDIT: That would be Christian's "mixed minors". Which is probably a good name.