Bone to pick with my jazz piano teacher on the 13th chord.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

I started guitar in '67. Actually '66, but i didn't get my first guitar until '67.

All my life, I learned that the 13th chord, no, we don't play the 11. Of course we don't, it conflicts with the 3rd.

right?

Round about '95 i get a piano, start teaching myself. I know, intellectually, theory, pretty much, so it was just a matter of me finding the notes on a piano. But, of course, I'm sure I was missing some piano related things so a few years into it, I start taking jazz piano lessons. And boy, there's a lot I didn't know, for sure.

However, my teacher now tells me that the 13th chord gets an 11.

I told him, who plays the 11? No one plays it, if play the 11, it will sound sussy and you're likely to not want to play the third.

Nope, it gets the 11. And he is an excellent jazz musician, by the way, and has a well known jazz website.

Is he wrong? Does anyone play an 11 on a 13 chord? You'd have to sus the four or omit the 3rd, right? I mean, you can do it on piano, but on guitar, how is this done? It becomes a sus sounding chord. When I write music, if I want a 13 to have a 11, or a 4, I just write is as , say, C13sus. Or, C13sus4. Or perhaps Bbmaj7/C . Take your pick. But something has to go, either the 11 or the 3, And, sometimes I will see a 'C11', which doesn't make sense, it's really a C9sus chord, right? or maybe Bb/C, etc. I asked him to play me a 13th chord, and what he played was 1 - 5 left hand, and Bbmaj7 in the right hand. That's really a C 13sus, in my book. He tells me the 'sus' is redundant. Okay, but you are omitting the 3, so what about that? No comment. Thing is, when I see 13th chord, I don't want it to have that sus sound. he thinks it is supposed to. And there is the argument, what the 13 chord is supposed to sound like. And, he's not alone. I saw another piano teach on the internet (some years ago, not a jazz guy), teaching 13th chords with 11s in them. I think they are wrong.

Am I right?

[rpjazzguitar]

If you play G13 with the 11th, that's G B D F A C E. Also known as "every white key".

Is your teacher suggesting leaving out any notes?

I think that it would be hard to make "all white keys at once" sound good.

If your teacher thinks it sounds good, great. If you don't think it sounds good, why would you play it?

[jackalGreen]

If you play G13 with the 11th, that's G B D F A C E. Also known as "every white key". If your teacher thinks it sounds good, great. If you don't think it sounds good, why would you play it?

I'd ask for an example from this teacher, in real time, without resolving any of the tensions. I don't hear any circumstance where that would work as a static chord.

[Bop Head]

I'd ask for an example from this teacher, in real time, without resolving any of the tensions. I don't hear any circumstance where that would work as a static chord.

From another forum: Positioning Chord Symbols and Rehearsal Marks for Jazz - Page 3 - NOTATIO

[fep]

More common to not have the 11th in a 13th chord, but it's not illegal to include the 11th and it still is a 13th chord. The third and the 11th make a minor 9th which is pretty harsh, (some might say spicey).

[ragman1]

Patrick, quite frankly you're boring the hell out of me.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

If you play G13 with the 11th, that's G B D F A C E. Also known as "every white key".

Is your teacher suggesting leaving out any notes?

I think that it would be hard to make "all white keys at once" sound good.

If your teacher thinks it sounds good, great. If you don't think it sounds good, why would you play it?

That isn't the point

The argument, or question is.

Do you omit the 11 on a 13th chord?

If you don't, you omit the 3, right?

If you don't, and you do omit the 3, do you write it as a C13sus?

As a composer, if I used a C13 in a song, (or any root) I expect the 11 to be omitted.

If I didn't want the 11 omitted, I would expect the guitarist/pianist to omit the 3 and I would write it as C13sus if I wanted the 11 to be included.

That is my understanding of the convention.

Am I right?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

More trad pianists would omit the 11th. More modern ones might very well choose to play both it and the third, more likely a minor second apart than a minor ninth.

Are you more trad or more modern?

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

More trad pianists would omit the 11th. More modern ones might very well choose to play both it and the third, more likely a minor second apart than a minor ninth.

Are you more trad or more modern?

Traditional.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Traditional.

Well, there you go! One thing we can all agree on: it sounds cool to add it in a Maj13(#11):

BbMaj13(#11): 685755

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

I'd ask for an example from this teacher, in real time, without resolving any of the tensions. I don't hear any circumstance where that would work as a static chord.

He played the 13th chord with the 11 and without the 3rd.

I told him that, if I were composing a song and put a 13th chord on a lead sheet, I would expect the pianist to exclude the 11. On guitar, I was always taught to omit the 11, unless the chord had 'sus' to it then we just play a 4 with 13 on top.

I said to him that if I wanted the 11 included and the 3 to be omitted, I would write it was, assuming root is C, as C13sus.

he told me that I was wrong. Technically, a 13 chord includes the major third and the 11, but no one plays it that way as I understand it, due to the conflict.

[PatrickJazzGuitar]

Well, there you go! One thing we can all agree on: it sounds cool to add it in a Maj13(#11):

BbMaj13(#11): 685755

Which makes a great last chord on standards, helps kill the earworm that some of the more tuneful standards create.

[Jimmy Smith]

You're right.

The 11 is a specific sound that you want to be purposeful about adding. Adding the 13 is a common color tone that you usually don't want to have a sus sound with. The 9 and 13 are the most common color tone additions that you'll want to get in the habit of adding. You don't want to be in the habit of always adding the 11 - add it when you want a sus sound.

I think it's common for even expert players / teachers to not know some things. Like my teacher Tony Monaco said why does E melodic minor sound good on autumn leaves when it's in G major. I said - because it's in E minor..

[AllanAllen]

If it matters that much to you, put the little dots on the lines for the chord you want. Not a chord symbol.

[Christian Miller]

It’s because the whole ‘stacking thirds’ thing is a simplified way to look at harmony.

Usually in tunes the 13th has some sort of melodic or contrapuntal logic to it. It most often occurs in standards with a 3rd of the key against the dominant chord. This is where it originated in c19 music (the ‘Chopin 6th’ as I’ve heard it called) and the tin pan alley songwriters inherited that type of harmony. All of Me and All the Things are obvious examples of this occurrence.

So when you are making chord melody arrangements this is something you will encounter a lot…

Some theorists classified it as a type of extended dominant.

of course in jazz comping and soloing we are a lot more relaxed about harmony in general and tend to be less concerned with the grammar. In chord scale theory we can sub it in for another ‘dominant’ chord in the general jazz kind of way. Standard voicings tend not to include both 11th and 13th. I tend to prefer not to include the 9th either, although the b9 is great, because in conventional situations it makes good voiceleading with the ii chord.

(Barry Harris would view this note as a ‘borrowed note’ from the diminished. This is an interesting aspect when making solo arrangements using his concepts.)

Sus chords with major thirds are not unusual though

[mr. beaumont]

3/7/6(13) and be done with it. Maybe a root, maybe a 9.

[Christian Miller]

As lines, complete dom 13th arpeggios are reasonably common though, and sound great

[pamosmusic]

I guess a question to ask might be in what situation are you actually voicing using seven notes?

Sax section? Nope.
guitar? Nope.
piano? Usually nope.

So you’re usually leaving out notes just to keep the voicing useable anyway.

[Christian Miller]

In general though I don’t hear the fourth as an avoid note on the dom7, not like it is on the major 7

Try it on a piano and see if you agree….

Barry Harris taught for soloing that all the notes of the dominant scale (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) are available on the dominant chord. Theory books get twisted out of shape about the treatment of the 3/4 semitone but it all sounds great in truth.

What I learn from the type of apparent contradiction mentioned by the op is that in general it’s very important not to take theory too seriously. Theory is in general a few notches about crystal dangling and astrology.

One big mistake imo is applying info relevant to chord voicings to lines. Different situations are different.

[pamosmusic]

In general though I don’t hear the fourth as an avoid note on the dom7, not like it is on the major 7

Try it on a piano and see if you agree….

Barry Harris taught for soloing that all the notes of the dominant scale (1 2 3 4 5 6 b7) are available on the dominant chord. Theory books get twisted out of shape about the treatment of the 3/4 semitone but it all sounds great in truth.

What I learn from the type of apparent contradiction mentioned by the op is that in general it’s very important not to take theory too seriously. Theory is in general a few notches about crystal dangling and astrology.

One big mistake imo is applying info relevant to chord voicings to lines. Different situations are different.

Yeah I think a big part of this is organization.

You’d know better than I about Barry Harris, but “all notes are available” generally rings very differently than “play any notes you want.”

Like an F major over a shell sounds pretty organized and like both the structures could resolve cleanly to a C major or whatever. All the notes in stacked thirds sounds like no note knows where it wants to go.

[Jimmy Smith]

I believe the OP was talking about in the context of chords, not lines. The 11 is an avoid note for (extended) chords unless you specifically want the sus sound. You have extend your chords and use color tones for it to sound jazzy and hip. You don't want to constantly be plunking down sus chords though do you?

Edit: but yeah, the 11 isn't an avoid note for lines. Not theoretically and not if you listen or read transcriptions.

[garybaldy]

Does an 11th have the 3rd as well?
I guess no because an 11th is not considered a dominant?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah I think a big part of this is organization.

You’d know better than I about Barry Harris, but “all notes are available” generally rings very differently than “play any notes you want.”

Like an F major over a shell sounds pretty organized and like both the structures could resolve cleanly to a C major or whatever. All the notes in stacked thirds sounds like no note knows where it wants to go.

Yeah, if you look at most jazz theory books they will talk about this like this

‘the major 13/6 in the Dorian is an avoid note on the m7 because it gives away the sound of the dominant’
‘the perfect 4th/natural 11th in the Mixolydian is an avoid note on the V7 because it sounds dissonant’

even if I didn’t quibble with either of these (I accept the first more than the second) the framing of that is really odd.

It is not wrong to identify the importance of B/C in the key of Cmaj for example in that ii V. A Dm6 chord does sound like a version of a G7 or G9 chord. The G7sus4 IS closely related to the Dm7 chord otoh.

what is problematic is the way it kind of makes a general rule out of something which is true for voicings most of the time (ignoring our Herbie style sus voicings for a minute.) When you are soloing it’s really up to you when and if you use more of the ‘iim7’ sound or more of the ‘V7 sound’. But follow this advice literally and you might end up thinking you have to follow the chord symbols instead of what real jazzers do which is chunk the ii and V together into a unit.

I do tend to play less fast and loose when comping tbf.

This wasn’t an issue with the Barry approach. We ignored the ii chords and made good sounding lines in the dominant scale and it was never an issue and they even sounded awesome when we tritone sub them.

I think there’s a fair amount of deprogramming you end up having to do with jazz learners who’ve read theory like this but haven’t studied solos and heads in depth. If they’ve been checking out the music, they’ve already worked out this stuff isn’t to be taken as the law of gravity or something.

[Christian Miller]

Does an 11th have the 3rd as well?
I guess no because an 11th is not considered a dominant?

it can do

or not

it depends

[Christian Miller]

You have extend your chords and use color tones for it to sound jazzy and hip

No you don’t.

I mean you can and we all do it, but it’s not an essential feature of jazz vocab.

A good example would be the first few bars of anthropology. Many Parker heads are surprisingly simple harmonically if you look at them closely and we tend to think of those as being both hip and jazzy. Extensions are used more as a special effect. Look how they are used in the first of A of confirmation for example.

(Often what people call extensions are the result of substituted triads and so on, but that’s another rant.)

But if you can’t sound hip on the basic notes, extensions won’t help.

and yes, it comes back to rhythm.