What key is this tune in?

**jeleuze** · 12-21-2023, 08:05 AM

Hello All,

what is the key of this tune? and how can I identify it?

thank you!

Jeleuze

**Peter C** · 12-21-2023, 09:30 AM

Only one quick listen while working. Anyway: Gmin (<Not - see my other post!). There is IV and V movement which suggests and reinforces this idea, but it moves around a lot. The bass will also tell you. Others with more theory grounding will doubtless chime in.

**ragman1** · 12-21-2023, 10:47 AM

It's very likely it's one of those tunes that, when written down, doesn't have a key sig because it's so 'modal'. Or is it 'quartal', because there's so many sus chords in there.

Your best bet, if you can't find a good transcription, is just to use your ear. Or get in touch with Andrew Hill. I'm sure he'd be delighted.

(It starts with a mixture of Fm and Bbm (b5) pentatonic (Ab F-Ab-Bb Db-Eb-E C-Bb-F Ab) and ends with Cm pentatonic over an Fm11. I didn't do in between)

**jeleuze** · 12-21-2023, 12:00 PM

thank you for your replies!

**Peter C** · 12-21-2023, 04:03 PM

Ha, had a bit more time and it seems it starts out in Abmin - my guitar was out of tune...

**pauln** · 12-21-2023, 04:25 PM

Ab minor is what I heard.

**ragman1** · 12-21-2023, 07:46 PM

Ab minor

That's possible too.

**Bop Head** · 12-21-2023, 08:12 PM

Originally Posted by ragman1

[...] Or get in touch with Andrew Hill. I'm sure he'd be delighted. [...]

Difficult. Andrew Hill died in 2007 at the age of 76. He studied with Hindemith. That record is from 1963.

**ragman1** · 12-21-2023, 08:29 PM

Ah! I'd never heard of him. There's a picture of a quite youngish black guy on the video and the track sounds very modern. That was the thinking anyway.

**Jimmy Smith** · 12-21-2023, 11:31 PM

Ab minor, relative minor to Cb major. :P

**Peter C** · 12-22-2023, 01:01 PM

OP: fixing a key centre for this tune is maybe not even useful. Is your intention to transcribe / learn (parts of) it? It's a devil to follow

**ragman1** · 12-22-2023, 03:40 PM

I'm fairly sure it starts in one key and finishes in another. Let's put it this way, it's not in C :-)

**mr. beaumont** · 12-22-2023, 04:26 PM

Such a cool tune...

Opening vamp is F melodic minor, over a Ab pedal...so like a Abmaj7#5 sound...but because the D is in the riff you get that b5/#11 sound too...

Then it gets very Monk...there's more color to the chords than simple 7ths, I think, but basically, Ab7, G7, Gb7, then E7, Eb7, D7

Then there's the quick descending chords with a common tone on top...so you get kind of D7 Dbmaj7 Cmaj (all with a C on top) and then like Ab13 (F on top) to G7, Gb7, keeping that F on top...

Then there's a Bb minor to Eb9 to a resolution chord I just can't figure out...

Back through the form, then instead of the Bbm7 Eb9 thing you get a Cm (or like an Ebmaj, it's a quartal sound) to a D7#9 vamp...and again that mysterious "resolving chord" that I cannot for the life of me pick up the bass note on.

You can definitely noodle between F minor/blues/MM and C minor pentatonic/blues through much of it, but it's not nearly so simple. The improv is pretty free but still follows the form, if that makes sense at all...

The long and short of it-- I'd write the chart in "C" (no key sig)

**Peter C** · 12-22-2023, 07:43 PM

I can hear the Abmaj7#5, that's a nice chord. Not so much Fmm, although the whole tones in that scale from Ab to E seemed to fit. Don't love the descending 7 chords so will leave this one for a very rainy day.

**Bop Head** · 12-22-2023, 07:49 PM

May those help better to understand this than Berkman or Levine:

Paul Hindemith - Wikipedia

**mr. beaumont** · 12-22-2023, 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Peter C

I can hear the Abmaj7#5, that's a nice chord. Not so much Fmm, although the whole tones in that scale from Ab to E seemed to fit. Don't love the descending 7 chords so will leave this one for a very rainy day.

AbMaj7#5 is the 3 chord in F MM...I'm not sure what that mode is called actually...I just looked for a note set that fit the sax "riff," it was F MM, And then I harmonized the scale and found the Ab chord in F MM is AbMaj7#5.

Which is a long way of saying "I could be completely wrong."

**Peter C** · 12-22-2023, 08:19 PM

Most of Hindemith's music employs a unique system that is tonal but non-diatonic, often notated without a traditional key signature.

Thanks for that link Bop Head, which will also clarify things for the OP.

You may be completely wrong Jeff, but you can bet I'm gonna be even wronger when it comes to theory. I do sometimes make up stuff which is "tonal but non-diatonic" without having the foggiest idea of what I'm doing. Anyway, if it sounds good...

**Bop Head** · 12-22-2023, 08:37 PM

Internet Archive: Digital Library of Free & Borrowable Books, Movies, Music & Wayback Machine

joelf · 12-23-2023, 10:13 AM

Originally Posted by jeleuze

Hello All,

what is the key of this tune? and how can I identify it?

thank you!

Jeleuze

What they said, and...

sounds like he wrote it w/o any key signature in mind, then maybe puzzled it out later. Many of the smarter composers do this, or plain out don't put a key signature at top LH corner. Instead they'll write accidentals as needed. It's a wise move, especially if the harmony wanders.