Nondiatonic book?

[Blackbird86]

Anyone have any suggestions on good easy to follow book on nondiatonic theory? Id prefer something that didnt involve sheet music.

Thanks!

[Rob MacKillop]

What do you mean by sheet music? Staff notation?

[Blackbird86]

What do you mean by sheet music? Staff notation?

Yes. I mainly go by scale and chord diagrams. Tabs are upside down to me. I know my 5 positions of the major modes and chord progression theory with maj/min chords and 7ths. But thats about it. Ive been trying to add some chromatic stuffs where i can but its mostly by feel and id like to know the theory behind adding those extra 5 notes not technically in key

[ragman1]

This is a decent start.

Diatonic & Non-Diatonic - Jazz Everyone

Otherwise, music theory is just music theory, whether diatonic or not. But be warned, knowing theory won't help you play the guitar any more than reading a car manual will make you into a driver.

Really, you just need a beginner's starter to jazz. There are lessons on this forum and many places on the internet. No need to splash out on expensive and complex books that you can't question, like you can a website.

[SoftwareGuy]

Otherwise, music theory is just music theory, whether diatonic or not. But be warned, knowing theory won't help you play the guitar any more than reading a car manual will make you into a driver.

But be warned, avoiding music theory won't teach you a thing.

[AllanAllen]

You don't need a book for this.

[pamosmusic]

But be warned, avoiding music theory won't teach you a thing.

Im not really in the habit of coming to ragmans defense or whatever, but if someone were looking to get into how to organize those chromatic notes in jazz, it wouldn’t really have much to do with theory or chromatic harmony. It would be more to do with ornamenting the theory you’re already using.

Something like this maybe, for a start:

Enclosures: The Lightbulb For Creating Jazz Lines

[ragman1]

But be warned, avoiding music theory won't teach you a thing.

I don't think you can avoid it, it's a question of its right place in things.

[SoftwareGuy]

I don't think you can avoid it, it's a question of its right place in things.

There are a lot of people dismissive of theory here.

I personally have found it useful and informative, but everybody has their own approach to learning.

The original post ask for book on nondiatonic theory. It seems like telling someone they won't find the answer useful isn't so useful.

Such books exist. Somebody must be finding them worth reading.

[pamosmusic]

There are a lot of people dismissive of theory here.

I personally have found it useful and informative, but everybody has their own approach to learning.

The original post ask for book on nondiatonic theory. It seems like telling someone they won't find the answer useful isn't so useful.

Such books exist. Somebody must be finding them worth reading.

Reading for context clues, I don’t think the OP is looking for theory, so much as he’s looking for melodic devices that help him organize chromaticism when he’s improvising. In jazz, that’s kind of separate from theory and is pretty consistent across different ways of approaching harmony, from Charlie Parker all the way to Ornette Coleman.

[SoftwareGuy]

Reading for context clues, I don’t think the OP is looking for theory, so much as he’s looking for melodic devices that help him organize chromaticism when he’s improvising. In jazz, that’s kind of separate from theory and is pretty consistent across different ways of approaching harmony, from Charlie Parker all the way to Ornette Coleman.

He doesn't say that. Maybe the purpose is to construct chords to do chord/melody stuff. To reharmonize a standard. Who knows? If the OP uses the word "theory", why do some people say that is not what he wants.

[pamosmusic]

Ive been trying to add some chromatic stuffs where i can but its mostly by feel and id like to know the theory behind adding those extra 5 notes not technically in key

I don’t know. Maybe the OP can clarify upon return, but this seems more like someone looking for ways to organize the five notes not technically in key, rather than for chords for chord melody.

Either way. Nothing to take personally. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I am. Now he’s got an answer either way.

[shrugs]

[SoftwareGuy]

I don’t know. Maybe the OP can clarify upon return, but this seems more like someone looking for ways to organize the five notes not technically in key, rather than for chords for chord melody.

Either way. Nothing to take personally. Maybe you’re right. Maybe I am. Now he’s got an answer either way.

[shrugs]

Absolutely, nothing personal. Normally I don't post here much. I guess I found the anti-theory vibe was just getting to me tonight.

[AllanAllen]

OP says they can’t read staff or tab. A theory book isn’t going to help until they pick one and figure out how to read it.

I would suggest Mel Bay Book one to learn to read and Charlie Parker heads by ear to see how inside this stuff actually is.

[pamosmusic]

I would suggest Mel Bay Book one to learn to read and Charlie Parker heads by ear to see how inside this stuff actually is.

Yeah that’s the rub. So maybe I’m filling in the blanks with respect to what the OP is looking for but the Jazz as Complex Theoretical Construct is a phase I went through when I was kind of new to it all. Seems pretty typical. Folks outline chords and it doesn’t sound like jazz so the assumption is generally that there most be more chords or more complex chords that they aren’t outlining, when usually it’s creative use of the extra notes against pretty straight down the middle harmony.

Obviously there are exceptions. But usually those guys — say, Coltrane — went through the common practice phase on their way to the more complex harmony and stuff. And they’re exceptions that prove the rule, probably.

[Blackbird86]

I honestly play more melancholic alt/indie rock stuff but everything i do (pretty much) comes from using the 7 notes that are in key. I know there are ways to utilize the other 5 notes and i want to learn. I hear jazz guitarists know theory very well.

My method: loop a chord progression then play scales/dyads/triads over top. Ive been experimenting with adding additional notes like the flatted 5th (blues scale), chromatic parts, the harmonic minor scale, and occasionally (been a while) bebop scales

I know that in a minor progession, the iv and v chords can be major and that sometimes works. I want to know more about stuff like this.

Im pretty much strictly an improvisational guitarist that relies on theory to help me pick what will work and what wont. Just trying to branch out and figure out more ways to utilize those other 5 notes.

I hope this clarifies things

Edit: also i know enough that i could probably figure out sheet music and tabs but learning songs doesnt interest me. I prefer to improvise and was hoping there was something out there that was explained in a way that would be easier to follow for my way of viewing things

2nd edit:

^example of where im at now (improvised jam for my buddy's business' youtube page from a week or so ago)

[Blackbird86]

Yeah that’s the rub. So maybe I’m filling in the blanks with respect to what the OP is looking for but the Jazz as Complex Theoretical Construct is a phase I went through when I was kind of new to it all. Seems pretty typical. Folks outline chords and it doesn’t sound like jazz so the assumption is generally that there most be more chords or more complex chords that they aren’t outlining, when usually it’s creative use of the extra notes against pretty straight down the middle harmony.

Obviously there are exceptions. But usually those guys — say, Coltrane — went through the common practice phase on their way to the more complex harmony and stuff. And they’re exceptions that prove the rule, probably.

Music cant all be explained with theory? I was always of the belief that music always had theory behind it even if the artist themselves werent aware of that

[pamosmusic]

Music cant all be explained with theory? I was always of the belief that music always had theory behind it even if the artist themselves werent aware of that

Depends on what you mean by theory.

and for your other stuff … jazz harmony might not exactly be the way to go. Or maybe it is. A lot of the time in pop and rock music, the non-diatonic chords maybe would be better explained using something like mode mixture. So that’s a device you can get into.

Mode Mixture

[Liarspoker]

A Chromatic Approach to Jazz Harmony by David Liebman is a good book.

A very interesting, but more radical book, is an Introduction to Post -Tonal Theory by Joseph Strauss.

Twentieth Century Harmony by Vincent Persichetti is good too.

These books all contain 'sheet music' but playing the examples is very worthwhile.

Also write stuff with what you learn from these books. It's all about application.

[Rob MacKillop]

It’s simple:

C Major scale has 7 notes: CDEFGAB

That leaves five notes which happen to form Eb Pentatonic Minor: Eb Gb Ab Bb Db

Sprinkle those extra notes like ground chilli pepper for spice. The girls will love you, and you’ll become rich!

[ragman1]

If the OP uses the word "theory", why do some people say that is not what he wants.

Because it isn't. He's using the word wrongly. Theory books are basically an explanation of musical information devoid of context. There's no 'non-diatonic theory' by itself, there's just theory which includes everything involved in music, diatonic and non-diatonic alike. After all, without the diatonic there'd be no non-diatonic; the one exists because of the other.

What he's asking is how to incorporate the non-diatonic notes into his playing. So what he needs is a guitar lesson, or lessons, which will show him. But it's a complex subject and absolutely needs context to make any explanation effective. It's not something which can be done here in a few words.

Soloing uses non-diatonic notes to enhance musical lines and chords use non-diatonic notes to enhance their sound. It's the difference between

Dm - G7 - C

and

Dm9 - G7#5b9 - C69#11

So he'll need to study it and apply it, not just read about it. He needs a site which explains it and that he feels at home with. So he'll have to go looking. There are already some good ideas on here so far.

It's just as foolish to be anti-theory as it is to divide theory from its use and application. It needs a comprehensive understanding so one has to start small, quietly, and work up from there.

[grahambop]

Could try the Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization, I don’t know much about it but at least it’s got the word ‘chromatic’ in the title.

[ragman1]

Not unless you want terminal brain damage

[pamosmusic]

Yeah some of these might be a bit overkill for indie vibe songwriting. Not saying that can’t be useful, but mode mixture is probably the most practical tool.

iv in the major key.
bVI in the major key.
IV in the minor key.

those are alllllll over pop music regardless of genre.

Get weirder if you want once you understand the tool.

EDIT: I’m an insufferable music school snob, so when I say pop music, I basically mean anything that’s not jazz or art music.

[AllanAllen]

I honestly play more melancholic alt/indie rock stuff but everything i do (pretty much) comes from using the 7 notes that are in key. I know there are ways to utilize the other 5 notes and i want to learn. I hear jazz guitarists know theory very well.

My method: loop a chord progression then play scales/dyads/triads over top. Ive been experimenting with adding additional notes like the flatted 5th (blues scale), chromatic parts, the harmonic minor scale, and occasionally (been a while) bebop scales

I know that in a minor progession, the iv and v chords can be major and that sometimes works. I want to know more about stuff like this.

Im pretty much strictly an improvisational guitarist that relies on theory to help me pick what will work and what wont. Just trying to branch out and figure out more ways to utilize those other 5 notes.

I hope this clarifies things

Edit: also i know enough that i could probably figure out sheet music and tabs but learning songs doesnt interest me. I prefer to improvise and was hoping there was something out there that was explained in a way that would be easier to follow for my way of viewing things

2nd edit:

^example of where im at now (improvised jam for my buddy's business' youtube page from a week or so ago)

That was a very pleasant clip. So, what songs do you like that use the extra 5 notes? Do you play any blues? That'll get 5 of the notes in there for you. The minor 3rd, the b5 and the major 7th you can chromatically walk through. Here's a video, I tried to hit a bunch of non diatonic notes. Just hit em and see what works.