The Use of Counterpoint in the Music of Ben Monder

[Tal_175]

Since we've been talking quite a bit about voice leading lately, I thought some of you might be interested in checking this out:
https://tspace.library.utoronto.ca/b...DMA_thesis.pdf

[Tal_175]

The paper also brings up a good question. What is counterpoint? Is voiceleading counterpoint?

I was under the impression that counterpoint was a very specific subset of polyphonic texture that is a collection of narrowly defined historical styles such as species counterpoint, imitative counterpoint, canon etc. But it seems like it's used synonymously with polyphony.

I think a distinction that is useful to make is whether there are harmonically independent voices (like imitative counterpoint) or there is a distinct main melody voice harmonically supported by other voices.

Thoughts?

[Christian Miller]

As I understand it..

Voiceleading is when you approach it from the chords perspective, think first about the harmony and the individual parts as emerging from that.

Counterpoint is when you think about the different lines and the intervals between them first and foremost.

but it’s not that simple necessarily. It’s possible to talk about the counterpoint of Bach chorales which are texturally more or less block chords, because that’s how Bach thought of them and you can talk about the way the bass is contrary motion with the melody, suspension chains etc.

Otoh the popular idea of counterpoint obviously be something more like a Bach fugue

I think in todays pedagogy Bach Chorales are often thought as harmony with voice leading. Which is not how they were written, but is often how they are understood and taught. People talk about Bach Harmony and how you shouldn’t write a iii chord and so on…

EDIT: I think that’s how the author of this paper is using the term. In general I think jazz musicians often use the word counterpoint to mean ‘polyphonic texture.’

That said there are principles of counterpoint that can be applied more generally to more modern music. I think a few jazzers have studied Fux for instance, I remember Adam Rogers and I’m sure there are others. I can’t imagine Ben Monder has never looked into this.

This interview has some historical insights which I found helpful

[James W]

I think the distinction that is useful to make is whether there are harmonically independent voices (like imitative counterpoint) or there is a distinct main melody voice harmonically supported by other voices.

Thoughts?

'Harmonically independent voices' - I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this because even if the counterpoint is imitative the voices still have to harmonise with each other; I think you mean melodically independent i.e. polyphonic rather than, as you say, a main melody backed by supported voices (homophony).

[Tal_175]

'Harmonically independent voices' - I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this because even if the counterpoint is imitative the voices still have to harmonise with each other; I think you mean melodically independent i.e. polyphonic rather than, as you say, a main melody backed by supported voices (homophony).

The effect of imitative counterpoint (ie why it works) is different that say 7-3 resolution voiceleading. At least that's how I hear it. Imitation relies more on listeners short term memory of a motive rather than harmonic effect of vertically aligned notes.

[James W]

The effect of imitative counterpoint (ie why it works) is different that say 7-3 resolution voiceleading. At least that's how I hear it. Imitation relies more on listeners short term memory of a motive rather than harmonic effect of vertically aligned notes.

Yes but even in imitative counterpoint there are harmonic (vertical) rules, even if the effect is different. When you mentioned 'harmonically independent voices' my first thought was are they bitonal or something? ...

[Christian Miller]

As Schubert points out while Palestrina’s counterpoint was ‘pure’ with by the time of Bach counterpoint was starting to act in partial subservience to harmonic progressions usually described in terms of the bass - obvious ones including cycle progressions, stepwise and chromatic bass lines and so on.

So maybe halfway towards voiceleading…

[Tal_175]

Yes but even in imitative counterpoint there are harmonic (vertical) rules, even if the effect is different. When you mentioned 'harmonically independent voices' my first thought was are they bitonal or something? ...

The strong horizontal logic of imitative counterpoint makes momentary vertical clashes less important in my view. But the more important distinction is egalitarian vs master-slave relationship between the melodies.

[James W]

The strong horizontal logic of imitative counterpoint makes momentary vertical clashes less important in my view. But more importantly the distinction is egalitarian vs master-slave relationship between the melodies.

The momentary vertical clashes i.e dissonance treatment e.g. a false relation, still requires attention from the composer though.

[bediles]

Tal, is this your thesis?

[wolflen]

In my early studies of music in general and jazz in particular I was drawn to writings and compositions that are not mainstream.

In the early 70's my inner drive was to understand and study jazz and why it worked and the performers were not central to this yet.

In upstate NY I discovered many diverse avenues of music studies. I read books by John Mehegan - Tonal and Rhythmic Principles..It has over 50 standards
and explained the harmonic reach of the chords used in the tunes. It basically said this material needs to be digested thoroughly to explore a jazz framework.

At the same time I discovered the music of Carla Bley and I listened to Coltrane in a more intense way and read some books on his life and music.

now I realized..I was getting serious about music and being a musician..It scared me.

This paper on Ben Monder is a good and necessary for me to explore some of the thinking of Monder..He is not one to be copied for his style.

The complex nature of his work is in every part of his playing..including his use of the amplifier.

thanks tal 175

[Tal_175]

Tal, is this your thesis?

No, no. I came across it on the web, and I thought others might be interested.

[Tal_175]

The momentary vertical clashes i.e dissonance treatment e.g. a false relation, still requires attention from the composer though.

You're right that the lines are not harmonically independent. I can see why the term I used is misleading.

The distinction I wanted to make was: a main melody line harmonized with other lines vs multiple lines with equal importance. In the first case, a supporting line can only be relieved of it's harmonizing duties if the main melody pauses (then other voice can do fills or inner lines for example). In the second case, the lines are harmonically compatible, but they are not perceived as harmonizations of another line. So there is a sort of "independence" in the way they flow.

This recording is an example of "independent" lines as opposed to the more traditional comping textures or bass lines:

[Christian Miller]

It will be interesting to check out the paper in the context of Marc (liarspoker’s) recent interview with Ben. I haven’t dug into either much yet

[Christian Miller]

The momentary vertical clashes i.e dissonance treatment e.g. a false relation, still requires attention from the composer though.

I will engage in a little obligatory English cadence posting
English Cadence — Music Theory #shorts - YouTube

These sound bluesy to me, of course.

[ragman1]

Oh god, academic paper #2... off you go.

It's like an upgraded version of some sort of medieval church music. It also sounds like me trying to do chord melody on a bad day. I wouldn't mind so much if it was even interesting, but it's not.

Which would you rather have? This one, with mr. nerd scratching his beard, or the other one that actually sounds like effing JAZZ?

Just for once be honest.

[Irishmuso]

[QUOTE=ragman1;1292750]Oh god, academic paper #2... off you go.


Which would you rather have? This one, with mr. nerd scratching his beard, or the other one that actually sounds like effing JAZZ?

Just for once be honest.

QUOTE]

The other one, absolutely and thanks for the transcription. Too late to start the sax I suppose....

[pamosmusic]

Oh god, academic paper #2... off you go.

It's like an upgraded version of some sort of medieval church music. It also sounds like me trying to do chord melody on a bad day. I wouldn't mind so much if it was even interesting, but it's not.

Which would you rather have? This one, with mr. nerd scratching his beard, or the other one that actually sounds like effing JAZZ?

Just for once be honest.

Which one would you rather have, chocolate or cheesecake?

Both, thank you.

But per your post, if I’m being honest, Ben Monder is a weird one. I don’t really get into his recorded stuff but he’s one of my absolute favorites to see live. He used to play now and again at the late, lamented Bar Next Door. People always just considered that a “standards spot” or something so he’d just play old American songbook tunes. And it was absolutely unreal. So good.

[Tal_175]

Which one would you rather have, chocolate or cheesecake?

Both, thank you.

But per your post, if I’m being honest, Ben Monder is a weird one. I don’t really get into his recorded stuff but he’s one of my absolute favorites to see live. He used to play now and again at the late, lamented Bar Next Door. People always just considered that a “standards spot” or something so he’d just play old American songbook tunes. And it was absolutely unreal. So good.

More like apples and oranges. Piano quartet featuring a Sax vs solo guitar? I'm surprised you even responded to that post. What are we gonna compare next, Ben Monder's whistling and London Philharmonic?

[pamosmusic]

Also I just finished the Ben Monder video.

1. Ben Monder’s is beautiful
2. Bad comparisons because I think if we’re being honest we’d all rather listen to a full band swing than a solo guitarist.
3. Ragman … would you be so kind as to try and post more playing from your “bad days?”

[James W]

You're right that the lines are not harmonically independent. I can see why the term I used is misleading.

The distinction I wanted to make was: a main melody line harmonized with other lines vs multiple lines with equal importance. In the first case, a supporting line can only be relieved of it's harmonizing duties if the main melody pauses (then other voice can do fills or inner lines for example). In the second case, the lines are harmonically compatible, but they are not perceived as harmonizations of another line. So there is a sort of "independence" in the way they flow.

This recording is an example of "independent" lines as opposed to the more traditional comping textures or bass lines:

Indeed. Hence why I said 'melodic independence'.

[James W]

But per your post, if I’m being honest, Ben Monder is a weird one. I don’t really get into his recorded stuff but he’s one of my absolute favorites to see live. He used to play now and again at the late, lamented Bar Next Door. People always just considered that a “standards spot” or something so he’d just play old American songbook tunes. And it was absolutely unreal. So good.

I feel this way about Julian Lage. Whenever I've listened to his studio recordings I found them nothing to write home about, but his live playing seems to be where it's at with him, for me...

[Tal_175]

'Harmonically independent voices' - I'm not entirely sure what you mean by this because even if the counterpoint is imitative the voices still have to harmonise with each other; I think you mean melodically independent i.e. polyphonic rather than, as you say, a main melody backed by supported voices (homophony).

Main melody backed by supported voices is not necessarily homophony. There is a contrapuntal way of doing the harmonic support of a main voice. That's the distinction I'm trying to make in this thread.

[pamosmusic]

Main melody backed by supported voices is not necessarily homophony. There is a contrapuntal way of doing the harmonic support of a main voice. That's the distinction I'm trying to make in this thread.

The textbook definition would be.

I think the distinction Christian made way down thread is important though. Textbook distinctions are only medium useful. There are some things that are obviously homophony and some things that are obviously polyphony, but in more modern music the distinction probably has more to do with how the person making the music is thinking about than with how the finished product sounds.

[Tal_175]

The textbook definition would be.

I think the distinction Christian made way down thread is important though. Textbook distinctions are only medium useful. There are some things that are obviously homophony and some things that are obviously polyphony, but in more modern music the distinction probably has more to do with how the person making the music is thinking about than with how the finished product sounds.

Homophony is also a rhythmic placement thing in my understanding.
One definition can be found here:
Texture – OPEN MUSIC THEORY.

Homophony is characterized by multiple voices harmonically moving together at the same pace.