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Hey. Im having some trouble learning chord melodies. I simply dont know where to go from here.
I have all the notes memorised on the fretboard. And can construct the chords and put melody on top. But it's very cumbersome, and it simply dosent sound good. Im not sure if im doing it right, coz I haven't found much info on this. Looking at YouTube videos and such I dont find much good, many videos even put the melody inside the chords, which in my view is wrong as the melody should be on top most of the time
Is it possible to learn all the chords on e, a , d, g strings? Putting the 3 and 7 of the chord on the d and g string, and the root on e and a. Making it some kinda shell voice type. I could then fit the melody on top using strings e and b. Or how do you guys proceed?
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10-02-2023 10:01 PM
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Don't panic. Here is a lesson that might help.
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this may help
TedGreene.com - Teachings - Single Note Soloing
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Jazzpazz: I wonder, since you are a keyboardist who reads notation and understands theory--what would you do on the piano, facing a fakebook chart that consists of the melody and chord names? I'm looking at the "Autumn in New York" chart from the Classic Real Book, and that's all it has--not even the bass-clef line that would help outline what the left hand might do. Can you already improvise a solo version of a tune from such a skeletal chart? Or, if the goal is to work up a basic presentation from such a chart, how would you devise a quick-and-dirty arrangement? Because that's what chord-melody is: arranging, which I think can include reharmonizing once it gets beyond simple presentation of a tune. Of course, the guitar presents challenges that the keyboard doesn't (as the O'Rourke video points out), but I would think that the main job is not so much playing the "exact chords" as finding the parts of them that sound good or interesting and that move well--and figuring out phrasing, as a vocalist would.
Jazz isn't the only tradition that employs chord-melody-style arranging--it's all over modern folk-rooted fingerstyle guitar, which is perhaps less demanding technically and harmonically. Two folk-rooted players who have clearly moved into jazz territory in their arranging and improvising are Guy Van Duser and Pat Donohue, whose approaches are a lot like what one sees in jazz instruction materials such as O'Rourke's. (I've interviewed both about this and taken workshops with Pat.)
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I can recommend this : Chord-Melody 101/201: Making Great Sounding Arrangements with Block Chords - by Steve Herberman
I bought that video lesson when it first came out around 2010, and it was a great help to me in starting to create better chord melodies.
Since it's so old, the video quality is not that good, but the lessons a great.
He goes through some Wes Montgomery stuff and a couple of his own arrangements and explains the choices and options in choosing chords and other considerations.
Apart from that i would just learn some chord melody arrangements written by others, and see how they do it. Try to figure out why their choices work, and find out what you like the best.
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Learn chords in root position, then learn them in first, second and third inversions.
Always be aware of what chord-tone/interval is on top (for instance: third, fifth, #11th or whatever).
Figure out what interval the melody note (on the chart) is in relation to the chord beneath it, if the melody note is not a chord-tone (for instance, a chromatic or passing tone), keep the chord shape underneath and change the top note accordingly.
Keep in mind that you don't always need to play the root of the chord (especially if you're playing with a bass player) and you may at times omit the fifth (or other chord-tones, if need be).
See what's available in different registers /areas of the fretboard.
Take your time, and don't get into tempo until you're confident with fingering.
Have some empty chord-box charts ready/handy and fill them in with fingerings so you don't forget the appropriate shapes.
If you don't have much time for practicing: film yourself while playing what you've learned, thus you can forget it, go back to it at the appropriate time and relearn it quickly.
Have fun with it!
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I can see why this process would hurt your brain. Knowing the notes and the theory behind chord construction is not gonna immediately lead to an efficient and fluent arrangement process. It's a good start but you have to become more familiar with guitar chord voicings and how to alter them.
Originally Posted by jazzpazz
A great way to develop facility and familiarity with different chord voicings is to learn how to voice lead each chord type horizontally. So pick a chord, say C major, and harmonize C major scale (or G major scale) by moving voices horizontally up the fretboard using only the Cmaj chord. Do this with each chord type. This will teach you:
- how to voice lead harmony,
- how to create chord voices with different extensions,
- how to hear those extensions in the context of the chord's sonarity,
- how to unify scales, chords and basslines as one and the same thing (as opposed to the compartmentalized view that plagues most guitarists).
Here is a demonstration of this concept by Mimi Fox:
TrueFire
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For chordmelody&tune arranging, you might find useful Fareed Haque's "Solo Guitar Handbook" on True Fire.
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Drop 2 and 3 voicings and inversions will be your bread and butter for chord melody on guitar.
Why don't we just pick a tune and go through the process?
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Lots of good info here allready.
one other thing you can try is playing just the melody notes with the bass note and find out how each melody note relates to the chord.
here’s a good lesson on that:
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This is a little odd. It sounds like you have strong opinions about how this is done. So my question would be … have you tried just doing it the way you do it? Originally Posted by jazzpazz
One thing you might notice is that chords can’t be voiced the same way. We can’t play close-voiced chords of more than three notes most of the time.
Another is that we’re functioning more as a pianists right hand, than as both hands. Try and get bass notes often enough that a listener doesn’t lose the thread, but what might seem like a bunch of different chords is probably not best described that way … it’s the way you might imply motion in one hand while the other is static. Most of the time we’re really talking about using upper structures and things like that to voice the chords with more color. It’s the same thing a pianist would do, except that guitar can’t play as many notes, so we usually have to sacrifice the lower structure for a time to make that sort of thing happen.Last edited by pamosmusic; 10-03-2023 at 06:26 PM.
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I forgot to add. Once you can move voices of the same chord type to harmonize its parent scale, the next step is to harmonize some of the non-chord tones with diatonic, chromatic and dominant passing chords. A very basic version of this is Barry Harris's 6th diminished scale harmonizations. Of course you want to figure out multiple ways of moving along the scale without repeating voices.
If you are bored, you can try to harmonize the chromatic scale with a single chord type using extensions and passing chords for fun. But what's also interesting is to explore what middle voice movements available to you once you can harmonize the melody voice.
This all may sound complicated but it's really not a fundamentally different process than what Mimi Fox demonstrates in the video I posted earlier.
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Post a video of your playing, then we can really help. You've been at this for what... a month? You'll get there, just don't quit.
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Yeah just reading some of the posts it sounds like maybe an experienced musician who’s expecting the experience to translate. Which it totally will … but I think maybe just being ready to be a beginner for a couple months will be helpful? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
The technical stuff will come along and then the musical stuff will be helpful.
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just noticed your new here..Welcome Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Not sure if you know about Ted Greene..do some research on him
in the link I sent you..he has arrangements with basic triads and many Bach chorals
his work with standards is well thought out and using most if not all the harmonic principles you mention in your post
he is considered one of the best players with extensive harmonic knowledge applied to guitar-he reads and plays both clefs
(I studies with him)
let me know what you think after you explore his work a bit
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I just checked out that lesson. There is no reharmonization in the lesson, just use of different voicings and approach chords, the progressions aren't reharmonized. It's a basic primer for chord melody. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Ive read that before. And honestly I dont think it answers any of my question. Im coming from a jazz piano background with a strong theory knowledge. That guide focused more on how to REHARMONISE. I want to simply play some chord melody from real books, following those exact chords. Only thing he mentioned in that guide was the 3 and 7, which I already knew, and is what my main question was about. But thanks anyway for the tip
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Some answers to people here.
Patrick: That link seems very promising. I will buy that course. And it might answer many questions. Especially going trough Wes stuff is just pure gold.
Frabarus: I will check out that video and course aswell.
Tal: Yes harmonising scales is probably very useful, and something I will slowly incorporate into my playing. But I was more wondering about specific chords to specific melodies. Playing accurate from a lead sheet
Mr Beaumont: Is drop 2 and 3 used very much by all the greats, like Wes and stuff?
Picking a tune and you guys would help me a ton. Can do something simple like amazing grace, or jazz like Ive never been in love before
Pano: You must read my thread post. I said ive tried it and it didn't sound good. I also explained how jazz pianist play jazz, and evolve beyond left hand for chords and right for melody. Chords goes in both hands! And no these aren't my odd opinions, but just the basics of playing jazz piano
Allan and pano: Im asking how to chord melody, coz I can't do it. I can still be a beginner on guitar and ask theory questions, which I can play around with.
Wolfen: Will do.
Frab: Yes ive seen much of jens Larsen. But he still does not answer any of the question I originally asked. Nor does he go in depth and show examples of he chord melodies. So I dont get much those videos except just some very general principles
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But you already have the basics, you say you can construct the chords and put a melody on top. You need to get out the guitar and play. It'll be cumbersome until it isn't. The only shortcut is don't quit. Originally Posted by jazzpazz
Work out arrangements for tunes, memorize them, and move on to another tune. It doesn't have to be all improvised all the time.
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I know that, but I think you misunderstand me. You play chords that span both hands, but guitar simply can’t play all those notes, so guitarists tend to favor motion and space and let the listener’s ear kind of fill in the blanks. So a person might play a C major chord on beat one of a measure, toss a few notes in with no harmony, then use diminished chords or diatonic movement to harmonize the next and get to the next chord. A pianist can keep the bass motion in the left hand, so all that stuff moving around above will still be anchored to the root. Guitarists can’t really do that, so there’s some sleight of hand involved there.You must read my thread post. I said ive tried it and it didn't sound good. I also explained how jazz pianist play jazz, and evolve beyond left hand for chords and right for melody. Chords goes in both hands! And no these aren't my odd opinions, but just the basics of playing jazz piano
Jeff mentioned the drop 2 and drop 3 chords (which are super common with Wes), and those would mean sacrificing the root in the bass to make interesting voicings happen. So guitarists just have to make more sacrifices, based on the fact that four note chords usually mean tricky fingerings and lots of five note chords aren’t playable. Just fewer options.
And I didn’t mean that you have odd opinions … just that you have strong opinions about how to arrange chord melody. Probably from experience. I might’ve missed the post where you said you had already tried that. But to Allen’s point (and my point about enjoying being a beginner), you might be assuming that something is wrong when it’s just new.
I wasn’t saying you shouldn’t ask theory questions because you’re a beginner on guitar. I was saying the opposite —- like that you probably already are doing a lot of things right, they just aren’t coming together technically yet, and that’s just about spending time with it. Are you sure the things you’re playing sound bad because they’re wrong? Isn’t it more likely that you just haven’t quite got them worked out on guitar?
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(And I didn’t mean for that first post to sound snarky … apologies if it did.)
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Probably worth just learning the standard drop 2 and drop 3 jazz guitar chord shapes to begin with, one of these will often give you the top note you want anyway. If they don’t, it’s usually quite easy to tweak them a bit and change the top note. Or play a rootless chord on the top 4 strings. Sometimes I find a 4-note rootless quartal chord can be very handy to fill the gap (these are usually very easy to play on guitar).
As others have said, you can often play passing notes or non-chord tones without a chord. Putting a chord under every note doesn’t sound that great on guitar, it’s quite hard to do well and can get kind of cluttered and choppy. But of you do want to harmonise passing tones/non-chord tones, diminished chords can often be used, they are very easy on guitar.
Wes Montgomery used to play great chord solos basically just alternating regular chords and diminished, mainly on the top 4 strings. Also similar to the Barry Harris sixth-diminished approach, if you want to go down that rabbit hole. (I’d save that for later maybe.)
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Start with the bass and melody. Add in the middle voices as practicable.
But I’m a counterpoint guy. I don’t like block chords so much, except occasionally.
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Yes this is a good approach, it’s what Andy Brown recommends (he is an excellent solo guitarist). Having said that, I often find it yields a fairly standard chord grip anyway. The guitar layout kind of enforces that I think. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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this is certainly true of tunes like ATTYA. Originally Posted by grahambop
Otoh you can find another good bassline and that suggest alternative chords. It’s my main (only?) method of reharmonisation haha
Ita more a textural thing. Four voice harmony is quite limited on guitar but can be effective but I prefer a more ‘broken up’ aesthetic with room for different voices or move around.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-04-2023 at 07:30 AM.
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