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Looking at the OP title
Really swinging jazz: *exists*
Jazz students: I DEMAND AN EXPLANATION!
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10-02-2023 07:17 AM
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I bought a TR-606 for $20 at a flea market. The guy said it wasn't very good, that you couldn't edit the sounds. I was like, yeah, that's terrible, here's 20 bucks, but I KNEW!
Originally Posted by JazzPadd
A few years ago I sold it for around $450 and I think the prices have gone even higher now.
Related to the thread topic, I also have the Roland MC-303 GROOVEBOX, which is probably one of the most hated of those boxes. It's buggy and hard to operate. But, it has the ability to quantize by not onlySWING but also GROOVE. It has dozens of groove templates that move around the timing and accents to make things sound like reggae, country, drum'n'bass, rock, techno, house, hiphop, probably even jazz.
So if there is a theory of different musical grooves, Roland put them in this machine.
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Most people are okay in the middle areas. Where it gets tricky is when it's very fast or very slow. And, for me, very slow is harder.
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Some players with great time and time-feel swear by the metronome. Some of those players will admit, in private, that they don't use it that much, but some do.
I know great players who use it and equally great players who don't use it much at all.
Some swear that if they go away from it for a while their time suffers. And, when they resume metronome practice their time is better.
So, the evidence for whether or not the metronome is essential is all over the place.
Speaking for myself, I have a tendency to play behind the beat. Playing along with a click has helped with that, to some limited degree. Mostly, I don't rush or drag (or so I'd like to think!), so the metronome can't help much with that. Which is not to say that I can play along with 50% of the clicks randomly omitted and nail the rest.
But, the big challenge is trying to get comping chords placed well enough to create a deep pocket. I think it could be argued that metronomic time is a necessary element (more or less) but I'd argue that it's not even close to sufficient.
That's what I label as "time-feel". I wouldn't argue that metronome practice detracts from good time-feel, but it certainly doesn't get you all the way there, IMO.
Based on some reports, the best way to do it may be to play drums as a kid.
For those of us who missed that boat, I think it's playing alongside players with great time feel and trying to fit in. Again speaking just for myself, there are things that I can assimilate live that I just don't get the same way from recordings.
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I think one thing gets overlooked in these discussions is negative space.
A very basic example - the amount of space one leaves at the end of a phrase without a metronome… something as simple as happy birthday…. Is it the right length?
for most people no. Humans hate silence. Musicians must learn to measure out exact amounts of it.
on the micro scale - where a note ends is as important to groove as where it begins
Peter Erskine’s Time Awareness is a good book. He makes these points early on..:
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There's a lot to be said about how good time feel works.
There's ample advice available from players and a significant technical literature based on detailed measurement.
But, in my experience, none of that verbiage or data helps very much.
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If you listen to Jacob Collier theory talks... he talks about the theory of groove a lot. Much of it is similar to what Christian has written in this thread. Here's a video (I which I could find the one where he talks about Ganwa and Samba, there's too much to sort through for me to find it).
Last edited by fep; 10-02-2023 at 06:51 PM.
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Well Jacob and I share a teacher, and his teacher and I also share a teacher haha.
this may sound cool, but bear in mind that there’s basically two guys who taught Brazilian percussion to every jazz musician in London and one of them moved back to Brazil before JC was out of primary school. Actually there’s another guy now, who’s lovely. It’s nice to go on percussion workshops.
So no coincidence. My chops are, shall we say, not quite up to JC’s level hahahahaha lol
it’s easy to forget JC’s first instrument after voice, was drums and percussion. He taught himself piano in the year my good friend had him in her Junior Royal College class (he was like 13 or something.) “look just go over there and work out how to play some chords Jacob, I’ve got to teach the humans.’
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I’m an amateur and mostly play at open jam sessions in a variety of venues with an array of players. With limited time I mainly practice just to play at sessions, so it’s mostly learning tunes. But I noticed something about time, not sure if it’s about good time.
Sometimes, with this piano trio that hosts one of the sessions, we get into this almost timeless thing. The form is there, but we’re floating above it somehow keeping it together. Not a groove, more a mutual flow. I’ve seen and heard pro musicians do that, but only rarely experience it myself, and after it happens we look at one another with a big smile. So there’s an interpersonal dynamic at play regarding time here. Jam sessions are random but also regular, and I play the same tunes with different people; the flow moments seem to only happen with that trio.
This reminds me of a wandering tenor player I met at these jam sessions. He’s now in Seoul, has played in Nola (I visited him there just before corona), and he’s gigged in NYC and Tokyo. He uses the metaphor of a ski jumper that I think catches some of what I mean by this timeless flow: When a tune gets cookin’ it’s like soaring through the air, what matters is landing well.
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Yeah this is so true. Not entirely relevant but Eric Whitacre posted this video about silence recently. He’s a great follow on Instagram, for whatever that’s worth. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
https://www.instagram.com/reel/CoaFq...ZhOTFlYzFmZQ==
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I went to a workshop by a percussionist who is Japanese but lives in America. He talked about Mu, which is (with me paraphrasing) the Zen Buddhist term for nothingness in between things. So in his playing he thinks as much about the space in between notes as the notes themselves.
It was interesating, because he's not what I would consider to be a sparse player. He has elements of pantomime and humor in his performances.
There is also Ma, and I honestly don't know if it's the same thing as Mu, or just related. I've heard Ma referred to in relation to the negative white space in Japanese woodblock prints. "The Wave" famously influenced Debussey.
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Man... it's not magic, or anything mystical. And it's not just working with a metronome over and over, that trial and error approach ... negative space... at best you'll become a time follow and no idea of what your following etc..
The Time/Feel skill... needs to be developed through... yes all the babysitting tools... but you also need to have an understanding of what your trying to do.
Time/Feel in jazz comes from... repeat or implied feel of repeat with musical organization.
1) yea a Pulse is needed, played or implied... but the pulse can be alive, meaning in any moment or short space... it can change... But yes... Pulse or the beat needs to be implied
2) Form.... there needs to be a style within a space... and that needs to repeat or imply repeat.
3) Awareness of how to create relationships with and develop those relationships with in that Form and Style ...and a concept of how to musically organize the repeat of... the rhythmic patterns and repeats of the Form.
Simple example .... a beginning ... a middle ... and an ending. Those can be played with etc... but something needs to be implied...
Feel .... can be created by what is done with the Pulse within a Form with a style.
All these concepts.... become subdivided. You use Rhythmic Patterns with Targets and Articulations.... rhythmic phrasing with repeating musical organization. At least implied.
And the better you extrapolate those patterns using basic musical tools....the better the feel.
It's not that complicated. Simple example, Tune with A A B A form. Use Call and Answer
Use the first two "A"s are the Call .... and use "B" and last "A" as the Answer. The Answer becomes a setup or turnaround ... to start over, repeat or create that feel of repeat.
Simple analogy.... your using and implying a two part of relationships of Call and Answer.
1) You split the Form into... again a two part Call and Answer....1) "A" "A" and 2) "B" "A".
2) You split the 2 sections up.... 1) make the A A also a type of call and answer as well as the ..2) the B A
... the second "A" answers the first "A" and do the same with the "B" and last "A". Keep subdividing.
Use rhythmic figures with Targets and Articulation.... rhythmic organization.. using same call answer relationship.
The basic concept... is Call and Answer as your Reference, and you create Relationships with that Call and Answer Reference.... by "Subdividing" that still has targets and repeats or implies repeat.... it's almost mechanical and you still have that basic shape of repeating Form.... Beginning.... Middle and.... End.
It's like having organized musical tools... in different tool boxes that can be use with reference to the styles and Forms.
Obviously... the better your chops and awareness of the theory of musical organization etc... the better the results,
you get that... man we were really magically in the pocket tonight etc.. (LOL) I worked in a trio last night great drummer and standup... we played by committee... within standard musical organizations of Form and use of subdividing etc...
and again... we interact... and play live creating feels of repeat with developments... we know where we're going because of what we played and are playing... because of standard patterns, with in standard Forms.
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Interesting. This is a deep topic. Originally Posted by Reg
One thing that strikes me. I can hear the difference between an excellent Brazilian drummer and a journeyman American drummer playing 16ths on an egg shaker. There is something about the exact placement of the 16ths. When the Brazilian expert does it, you can feel the groove more deeply.
Similar argument for ride beat.
And, they have both been analyzed with frequency diagrams, which prove that the groove is not right on the click.
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Thank god Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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On the other hand not being able to play on the click is not a guarantee of having ‘good feel’ ;-)
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It's a long story I won't tell, but in the course of a Covid era combo project, I started sliding wave forms in a samba. Groove seemed best with the bass on the click and the drums ahead of it by about 17ms. I don't recall where the comping sounded best, probably because it wasn't as repetitive (more difficult to characterize simply).
The drummer also recorded a version right on the click as a demonstration of the difference, which was lifeless.
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That’s what I’d pretty much expect - as my samba teacher said, if it doesn’t feel like it’s speeding up, you’re doing it wrong. Apparently in Rio if aren’t pushing, you’re dragging. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The surdo keeps the time grounded I suppose (which would be bass/bass drum in a jazz group).
So as a guitarist you have to push with your fingers and lay it down with your thumb I guess … tricky!Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-04-2023 at 02:47 PM.
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There are three surdo parts in one classic version of samba At least one of them plays the big TWO on the click - I think (loud second quarter in 2/4) and a quick note before it which I'm guessing would not graph right on the 16th click,although it would probably be written that way. There may be a less loud hit on the ONE, which I think may be right on the click. Sort of bomp - ba - BOOM, bomp - ba - BOOM. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The guitarist's thumb can double that part. The fingers double the tamborim pattern or the shaker, or fragments thereof, and I don't think much of that falls right on the 16th click. I don't recall seeing anybody graph that. But, maybe it's reasonable to assume that it would sound mechanical if it was mathematically perfect.
As an aside, the bassist is doing that too, more or less, which raises the spectre of possible conflict. That's a subject for a different post.
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Thanks again PatrickWD. That was one of the single best lessons I've ever seen in my life! lol - A complete and accurate explanation of time feel. So invaluable to any musician to understand this topic. And of course people want to say you can't understand it. It must be a mystery and you only get it or you don't. Yeah ok.
And now with the recap refutation to the others who apparently just run their opinion that time feel can't be quantified when one of the very first posts was exactly that. Does everything that isn't in line with your worldview just go in one ear and out the other? :P Originally Posted by PatrickWD
Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by James W
Christian, I don't doubt it's possible to teach or learn good time feel, just not have it explained theoretically - because the 'why' of it I think is of necessity a mysterious thing. Is it possible to use theory to explain why Bitches Brew sounds so good? Originally Posted by Litterick
And ragman not only thinks you can't explain it but you can't methodically learn any more than you have naturally. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
pamosmusic effectively refuted him. Originally Posted by ragman1
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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My point was that all of that verbally-based understanding doesn't help very much in my experience.
The last three words are important. Other people may have different experience, but that has been mine.
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Check that clip. It really helped me.
From the ground up you have: 1. Consistency - good tempo. Playing stuff that's in time and outlines the pulse. 2. Precision - playing things accurately. These are what have to be built up first. Then to get expression going you have 3. Flexibility - playing stuff in front or behind the time for effect but not out of sloppiness. Then 4. there's Subtlety.
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I found it significant that the FIRST and lowest Surdo that plays the 2. Originally there was no Surdo on 1, this was added sometime in the 50s (?) if memory serves. The busier third Surdo was added later on still. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
The Surdo note also has a very exact length because you stop it with the other hand. Again, negative space… but suffice to say it’s a legato tone unlike the tamborim.
playing a slight or even pronounced accent on 2 is a good way to simulate this. Also, make sure the bass note on 3 is always lower or equal pitch than 1, never higher. Perhaps you could even leave out the bass note on the first beat.
presumably you know this stuff, I’m just writing it for anyone else who might be interested.
No actually one of the first things I was taught about samba is that it doesn’t. (Although my percussion teacher told a funny story about that involving a German record producer)
The guitarist's thumb can double that part. The fingers double the tamborim pattern or the shaker, or fragments thereof, and I don't think much of that falls right on the 16th click. I don't recall seeing anybody graph that. But, maybe it's reasonable to assume that it would sound mechanical if it was mathematically perfect.
Anyway if you break it down, it’s this, 2nd 16th late, 3rd and 4th early
But I don’t think that helps. What helps is playing a shaker or the Caixa pattern.
Also saying ‘maracaTU maracaTu’ or ‘karakaTA karakaTA’ helps get the feel (the TU or TA is on one.
For the syncopated rhythm we often play with the fingers on guitar I found it useful to go from a waltz (boom-cha-cha) to straight 16th upbeats. Samba swing lies somewhere between those two..
I’ve never been quite sure what to do about that aside from trying to ‘ghost’ the thumb. I think most Brazilian guitarists play fingerstyle in ensembles still, rather than playing the guitar like a Cavaco?As an aside, the bassist is doing that too, more or less, which raises the spectre of possible conflict. That's a subject for a different post.Last edited by Christian Miller; 10-05-2023 at 03:19 AM.
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I wish you all a good time.
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I've heard it done well in different ways. Some just play the thumb doubling what you might expect a simple bass line to do. I think Antonio Adolfo taught it this way in his book, but I'm going by memory. Some play chords (strumming or plucking) without the bass notes, eg. playing the chords before the bar lines by a 16th or sometimes an eighth (in 2/4). Some play the tamborim pattern, more or less, in chords without bass notes. Some play all upbeats, cleverly accented. And, one technique I was recently exposed to is to play both thumb and index on the same note on the D string. That one is intriguing because you can get all the 16th notes and give the bassist nothing to complain about. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I found it significant that the FIRST and lowest Surdo that plays the 2. Originally there was no Surdo on 1, this was added sometime in the 50s (?) if memory serves. The busier third Surdo was added later on still.
The Surdo note also has a very exact length because you stop it with the other hand. Again, negative space… but suffice to say it’s a legato tone unlike the tamborim.
playing a slight or even pronounced accent on 2 is a good way to simulate this. Also, make sure the bass note on 3 is always lower or equal pitch than 1, never higher. Perhaps you could even leave out the bass note on the first beat.
presumably you know this stuff, I’m just writing it for anyone else who might be interested.
No actually one of the first things I was taught about samba is that it doesn’t. (Although my percussion teacher told a funny story about that involving a German record producer)
Anyway if you break it down, it’s this, 2nd 16th late, 3rd and 4th early
But I don’t think that helps. What helps is playing a shaker or the Caixa pattern.
Also saying ‘maracaTU maracaTu’ or ‘karakaTA karakaTA’ helps get the feel (the TU or TA is on one.
For the syncopated rhythm we often play with the fingers on guitar I found it useful to go from a waltz (boom-cha-cha) to straight 16th upbeats. Samba swing lies somewhere between those two..
I’ve never been quite sure what to do about that aside from trying to ‘ghost’ the thumb. I think most Brazilian guitarists play fingerstyle in ensembles still, rather than playing the guitar like a Cavaco?
Open Studio has some lessons available (a free one is worth watching if you don't want to buy the samba course). They have Romero Lubambo, who I think uses the thumb in a more or less traditional way (allowing for the fact that he's a monster player) and another band with a guitar player who doesn't do that and sounds awesome.
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This sounds like an interesting idea… I’ll give it a go! Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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