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I am off to a confused start and I clearly need this to be explained to me like a five year old. The issue I am having is over the bars where Chris is saying to do a Cmaj7 down to a a C# because it is the third of Amaj. I think my issue is that I don't understand the form. My guess is there is a type of I vi ii V turnaround in bars 7-10, but why are we going to an Amaj in bar 8? In the key of C, we would normally go to an Am as that vi chord. So when we descend to a C#, I am unclear why we are outlining a Amaj.
Any help appreciated.
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09-25-2023 09:59 AM
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Pretty typical for bars 7-8 of a blues would be to go either back to the I (C7) or to a iii (Em) in bar 7 and then to an A7 in bar 8. The raised third leads really nicely into the Dm7 that usually happens in bar 9. So the C major up covers bar 7 and the descent back to C# covers that A7 in bar 8.
Originally Posted by SandChannel
I am off to a confused start and I clearly need this to be explained to me like a five year old. The issue I am having is over the bars where Chris is saying to do a Cmaj7 down to a a C# because it is the third of Amaj. I think my issue is that I don't understand the form. My guess is there is a type of I vi ii V turnaround in bars 7-10, but why are we going to an Amaj in bar 8? In the key of C, we would normally go to an Am as that vi chord. So when we descend to a C#, I am unclear why we are outlining a Amaj.
Any help appreciated.
When playing single notes, Barry (and loads of other players) like to generalize and just play the V chord in a ii-V, which is why Chris only uses the scale for the G7 in bars 9-10. Can’t remember if he explains that in that video, but I can see why that might confuse the purpose of the A7 in the bar that comes before.
Disclaimer: I’m a Barry Harris novice.
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Still trying to wrap my head around everything.... It looks like Chris is demonstrating the below progression: Originally Posted by pamosmusic
C7 / F7 / C7 / C7
F7 / F7/ Cmaj7 / Amaj7
G7 / G7 / Cmaj7 / G7
I understand the move to replace the ii V in measures 9-10 because Barry is simplifying the things down. I am still at a loss about the major chords. What subs are being used to make the standard C7 in measures 7-8 into a Cmaj7 and an Amaj7 like you've mentioned? It is kinda confusing, because you said that the raised third moves nicely to the ii V but we eliminated the ii and just went to the V. Without getting too deep into the weeds, I suppose I need to know what the original form was supposed to be and how we ended up with Barry's subs. Still new at a lot of this and learning as I go. Subs are always a bit confusing to me. Thanks!
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A7, not Amaj7 Originally Posted by SandChannel
A C# E G
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Noted! My mistake. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
What type of sub are we doing when we make a Cmaj7 into an A7? I don't think A7 is diatonic to Cmaj.
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Run the C major down to the third of A7, C# Originally Posted by SandChannel
So (from the 7th)
B A G F E D C#
at least I assume that’s what he’s demonstrating I haven’t watched the vid, but it’s standard Barry scale running stuff
neatest way to handle a VI7 chord!
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The A7 is introduced as the V7 chord of Dmi7. Even though Chris simplifies bars 9 and 10 to just G7, the rhythm is Bar 9 Dmi7 and bar 10 G7. Originally Posted by SandChannel
Now that you know you’re moving to Dmi7 in bar 9 we place the dominant chord that resolves to Dmi7 in bar 8. This will push the progression along nicely. The A7 is said to be a secondary dominant. It doesn’t belong in the C major scale but it pushes us toward a chord that is in the scale.
Hope this helps. If you’re getting to know Blues forms in the world of Jazz, this chord is very important to know.
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I don't think anybody has answered one of the questions that you raised. Why are we playing CMaj7 as the I chord (bars 7 and 11) in the turnarounds instead of C7?
Most typically the bars 7 and 8 in the key of C are: | C7 | Emin7b5 A7 |
Considering that Emin7b5 is just the C9 chord, playing the C7 scale up and down to C# (the third of A7) makes sense. This amounts to playing Phrygian Dominant with added #9 (A7b9#9b13). So, if Cmaj7 seems a bit odd to you, just play C7 into A7.
But why the Cmaj7? This is one way Barry Harris showed the blues changes. The two turnarounds from bars 7 to 12 (the slow and the quick one) played like turnarounds of standards. Note playing CMaj7 also makes the the VI chord the more unusual A9#9b13 (B instead of Bb as the 9th) but since we are descending Cmaj7 in the 8th bar we aren't really playing the 9th anyway in the A7 bar.Last edited by Tal_175; 09-26-2023 at 10:54 AM.
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I can only answer you this way: Originally Posted by Tal_175
It sounds better to my ears
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Just adding the video in question to the thread:
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That's the question that the OP asked. I was just responding to it. I repeated the question because it seemed to me like it was quietly ignored in the answers so far. Originally Posted by Petimar
I can only answer you this way:
It sounds better to my ears
My sense is that, when people post a question in the theory section of the forum, they are looking for an analytical or historical break down of the concept rather than "because it sounds better to me" type of answers.Last edited by Tal_175; 09-26-2023 at 11:04 AM.
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That is basically the crux of my question. As a beginner, I have come across a lot of versions of the Jazz Blues Changes, but I cannot recall one that has a Major chords in those bars. I am just trying to understand what form Chris is working from and then I can start to figure out the subs that Barry Harris opts to use over them. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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A VI7 chord is extremely common on measure 8 in basically all versions of a jazz blues. Originally Posted by SandChannel
The iii-7 in bar 7 is pretty common too. It’s in the key of F, but take a look at Billies Bounce. As is a C6 or C7.
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The ma7 instead of the 7 in blues when discussing the Ima chord was something I first saw when learning bebop heads, specifically Charlie Parker tunes. It happened as part of the reharmonization of the blues to create a more stylistic modern jazz sound. Blues for Alice is an example where the chord changes start stepping away from the more basic form. Bird uses a Ima7 at the beginning of the tune here. Originally Posted by SandChannel
John Lewis is the pianist that I believe was credited with using the changes | Cma7 / Dmi7 / | Emi7 / A7(or Ebmi7) / | in bars 7 and 8. It became a common movement.
The bottom line is the blues is a very flexible chord structure that alters from generation to generation. Bebop in the 1940’s advanced the form harmonically and from that time forward musicians used many different versions.
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From my listening experience one of the most frequently used blues change in the bebop days and also in rhythm & blues tunes from the same era goes like this in meas. 5 to 10 (example in the key of C): Originally Posted by Tal_175
| F7 / / / | F#o / / / | C6 / Dm7 (or F7) / | Em7 (not Em7b5 in that case) / A7 / | Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / |
The C major up and back down to the third of A fits here as well.
Meas. 7 and 8 can be explained as follows:
Very basic changes are two meas. of C. The III chord Em7 is a substitute for a C major chord, its notes are 3, 5, 7 and 9 of C. At the same time it is the II of a II-V leading to the II chord Dm7 in meas. 9 (Em7-A7 --> Dm7). The Dm7 in meas. 7 is a diatonic passing chord betwen the I (C) and the III (Em7). An F7 at the same place would be the tritone subtitute for the V leading to Em7 (F7 instead of B7 -> Em7). [There is also a close relationship between Dm7 and F7 because Dm7 is an inversion of F6. The only difference between F6 and F7 is the halfstep between D and Eb.]
I point this out as this blues variation is often neglected in modern jazz education.
A good example is "Red Top".
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Yes, Bird Blues is another example of jazz blues variation that used III min or I maj in the turnarounds. In the Howard Rees workshop videos, Barry Harris used the I maj7 variation in the turnarounds. That's why I think a lot of the Barry Harris instruction material out there uses this version. Originally Posted by Bop Head
One can adopt Barry Harris scale outline to different variations of the blues. Playing I7 into VI7 in bars 7 and 8 is also perfectly acceptable IMO for many of the variations where the 7th bar is I7.
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"Bird Blues" as I know it (I think they called it "Swedish Blues" back then), e.g. "Blues for Alice", is rather different from what I described above: Originally Posted by Tal_175
| C / / / | Bm7[b5 possible] / E7 / | Am7 / D7 / | Gm7 / C7 / |
| F / / / | Fm7 / Bb7 / | Em7 / A7 / | Ebm7 / Ab7 / |
| Dm7 / / / | G7 / / / | [choose your favorite turnaround variation for the last 2 bars]
This variation is about two very important variations of chaining II-Vs:
1) II-Vs going down in major 2nds, tonics follow the cycle of fourths
2) tonics of Vs preceded by their respective IIs follow the cycle, every other II-V is tritone substituted, resulting in II-Vs going down in minor seconds
BH scale outline for "Swedish Blues" variant:
C major up - G major resp. G7 down to the 3rd of E [or E7 up if Bm7 has natural 5th] - D7 up - C7 up
F major up - Bb7 up - A7 up - Ab7 up
G7 up and down - turnaround outline: eg. C major down to 3rd of A - G7 up
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In Bird blues you'll typically hear turnarounds played like the standards: iii VI | ii V or Imaj7 VI | ii V. Originally Posted by Bop Head
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In a workshop Barry outlined a Parker take on a blues as follows (in C) IIRC
C6 | Dm7 G7 | C6 | Gm7 C7 |
F7 | (Fm) | Em7 | Ebm7 |
Dm7 | G7 | C6 | Dm7 G7 |
except for the lack of the move to relative minor in bar 3 extremely similar to the Swedish Blues variant
Not every bird blues tune or solo looks like this, but Parker tended to favour a major, not dominant quality chord until bar 4, and a dominant sound on IV. Also the surprisingly vanilla ii V in bar 2 is indeed a feature of some of the eras blues heads.
in fact the blues tonality is really reserved just for bars 4-5 where it is leant into. This is a common feature of birds blues writing and playing. (And also confirmation.)
The sideslip in bar 8 is also extremely stylistic. Try it!Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-26-2023 at 04:58 PM.
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Yes! Bloomdido is a pretty close example of that variation. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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So how would the scales lay out across the middle four measures? Originally Posted by Christian Miller
F7 | Fm | G6 | Gb6? … or maybe A7 and Ab7 instead of G6 and Gb6?
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I would probably go Originally Posted by pamosmusic
F7 Bb7 A7 Ab7
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Alternatively you could try Originally Posted by Christian Miller
F7 up - F melodic minor up [or F minor 6th diminished up to 6th] - C major up - Ab7 up
Just speculating, no instrument at hand ATM.
It is probably best to try out those things against a playback (might be simple four-to-the-bar shell voicings with a looper) or play the changes immediately before you play the scale outline so you can hear how the different pitch collections sound against the changes. (The latter requires probably a better developed hearing and auditory memory).
Christians proposal of dominant scales going down in minor seconds (I am totally fine with that) has a big advantage: If you later use the material for improvisation, scales so close to each other offer many possibilties of enclosures when changing from one to another.
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Cool, yeah. Both of those make sense.
Thank you!
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Yeah that’s all good! Originally Posted by Bop Head
Also another reason -
in my contact with Barry he always seemed to focus on dominant scales first and foremost, and without wanting to speculate too much I presume that’s because we spend so much of our time in the workshops focussing on developing language from the dominant scales. That’s the point as I see it of the ‘run the scale down to the third of the dominant’ - it stops you being locked into harmonic minor, which will be less familiar. (Barry in fact stated this in a workshop.)
He also said ‘let the dominant dominate’
We can then always add in m6-dim (or melodic minor) ideas via the important minor relation.
That said, Barry also taught very simply to play arpeggiated m7 and m9 on sideslip progressions like this. Think Groovin’ High first A turnaround
We would tend think of these chords (as Barry called them, not arpeggios) as being parented by the dominant scale - the ‘chord on 5’ if you like (iirc the term was something like that - anyone?)
Might seem a little convoluted, but it makes sense in context with his other teaching.
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