Diminished function …. I wish I knew ….

[pingu]

ok here goes …..

I wish I knew how it would feel to be free

in F

16 bar form
Bo = pickup into last 4 bars

|| F Eo | Dm Bo | F. C11 | F. ||

Here goes ….

can someone explain the function of the Bo
and the Eo , here ?

ta mates

[pamosmusic]

E diminished is a pretty common passing diminished chord. Comes from it being sort of an inversion of the leading tone diminished chord.

In this case going F to E to D is a nicer bassline.

The B diminished also functions as a leading tone diminished chord usually to a F/C … also sometimes thought of as a C7 with a suspension. Christian will probably be along with a more historically interesting or accurate explanation for this one.

So look for diminished chords that are a half step below the next chord. Or a whole step above (see: symmetrical diminished chords on that one).

[rpjazzguitar]

Eo is a rootless A7b9. So, no surprise that it leads to a Dm.

After the Dm comes Bo, which is a rootless G7b9. So, perhaps it can be understood as a variant of a ii V.

But, after that comes an Fmajor, which I can't explain. Is it correct?

[Chris236]

ok here goes …..

I wish I knew how it would feel to be free

in F

16 bar form
Bo = pickup into last 4 bars

|| F Eo | Dm Bo | F. C11 | F. ||

Here goes ….

can someone explain the function of the Bo
and the Eo , here ?

ta mates

the Edim7 actually functions more like a A7b9/E (V7/vi) than a passing diminished chord.

the Bdim7 falls more into what’s categorically, considered a passing diminished chord, although typically it would be moving to F/C. Sometimes the ear can fill in the blanks though!

[Tal_175]

Bo is also called #4 diminished. It functions as E7 which is the V of Aminor7. A minor 7 is just Fmaj9 chord. A minor 7 is also C6 which is what Barry Harris calls the 6th on the 5th (w.r.t. F). That's why #4 diminished often goes to the second inversion of F (with C in the bass).

I agree that Edim functions as A7.

[pamosmusic]

On Chris’s point (which is probably better):

You can put a diminished triad on any degree of that A7b9 chord (except the A) and get various extensions. So that happens a lot in sort of pop and gospel stuff too. In jazz you’ll see it written as the big chord, but other styles they’ll toss it in like you see it there.

A … C# dim (C#E G, 3-5-b7)
A … E dim (E G Bb, 5-b7-b9)
A … G dim (G Bb Db, b7-b9-3)
A … Bb dim (Bb Db E, b9-3-5)

Please don’t come after me on those enharmonic equivalents.

[pingu]

thanks all great

Ok Refining my enquiry .....

F can be preceeded by Fo .....fine sounds good

F can be preceeded by Eo ok fine (also sounds good)

Qu

How come both these work ??

[Tal_175]

thanks all great

Ok Refining my enquiry .....

F can be preceeded by Fo .....fine sounds good

F can be preceeded by Eo ok fine (also sounds good)

Qu

How come both these work ??

A tonic major chord has two functionally related minor chords that are a 3rd apart in both directions. For F these are D minor and A minor. Each of the diminishes resolves to one of these as discussed in the previous posts.

[setemupjoe]

thanks all great

Ok Refining my enquiry .....

F can be preceeded by Fo .....fine sounds good

F can be preceeded by Eo ok fine (also sounds good)

Qu

How come both these work ??

E° can be thought of as a sub for C7. C7 is the dominant chord resolving to F.

F° to F is thought of as a suspension. The ear expects the resolution of an F chord but it’s preceded by the F° to create a delayed resolution. Check out the beginning of Misty. The first chord (Ebma7) is often preceded by its diminished (Eb°7)


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[pingu]

E° can be thought of as a sub for C7. C7 is the dominant chord resolving to F.

F° to F is thought of as a suspension. The ear expects the resolution of an F chord but it’s preceded by the F° to create a delayed resolution. Check out the beginning of Misty. The first chord (Ebma7) is often preceded by its diminished (Eb°7)


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

that's a superbly concise answer , thanks a lot Joe

A small point but ....
Is there another word instead of "suspension" for this
type of Diminished use
I already use that word in my mind for Sus4 etc

[Chris236]

thanks all great

Ok Refining my enquiry .....

F can be preceeded by Fo .....fine sounds good

F can be preceeded by Eo ok fine (also sounds good)

Qu

How come both these work ??

in the ‘key’ of F, Fdim7 is what’s known as an ‘auxiliary’ 1 chord. You can call it modal interchange with the diminished scale if you like. Context is important however.

the Edim7 works in the context you initially provided because it’s essentially an enharmonic substitution for A7….which is the V7/vi.

Hope this helps.

C

[Chris236]

A suspension has to do with a chord’s 3rd being replaced with the 2nd or 4th. The third is ‘suspended’.

[Tal_175]

F° to F is thought of as a suspension. The ear expects the resolution of an F chord but it’s preceded by the F° to create a delayed resolution. Check out the beginning of Misty.

Yes, Idim to I is a common(-ish) harmonic device. That would be applied as Gmin | C7 | Fo | F | as a delayed resolution.
but in the example OP gave:
|| F Eo | Dm Bo | F. C11 | F. ||
I don't think Bo is functioning as Fo to delay the resolution to F (since we are coming from Dm).

In this case Bo acts as a #IVo rather than Io, IMO.

[Chris236]

Yes, Idim to I is a common(-ish) harmonic device. That would be applied as Gmin | C7 | Fo | F | as a delayed resolution.
but in the example OP gave:
|| F Eo | Dm Bo | F. C11 | F. ||
I don't think Bo is functioning as Fo to delay the resolution to F (since we are coming from Dm).

In this case Bo acts as a #IVo rather than Io, IMO.

in your second scenario I agree - the Bdim functions more like a Idim7 in 2nd inversion…..as a general rule, diminished chords are about bass motion.

[pingu]

You're trying to make the theory fit the fact. It's a dead simple gospel-type civil rights anthem song. Nothing to it at all.

I can't find a single bona fide jazz performer who has recorded it, it's all pop-type artists. And not one of them plays anything other than straightforward chords.

Pingu - if you don't mind my asking, where did you get those chords from, with the diminisheds and all that? I'd love to know, even more so if you can provide a recorded version of it. Presumably you heard it somewhere.

Yes I'm trying to make the theory fit the fact
(Like why does this work ?)

I do that sometimes , so shoot me
--------------------------------
I'm a Brit and so I heard the tune every week for decades
As the theme tune to the BBC show Film xx (the year number)
hosted by Barry Norman ....

This version was used (after the colla intro chorus) I believe
Nice groove huh ?

So there's that ,and then Nina used to play it often too
I like that too ....

I don't find it a "dead simple gospel type civil rights anthem"

What are the "dead simple" chords I should be using Ragman ?
There's "nothing to it at all"

Could you write it out for me in F Ragman ?
I'm interested ....

[pamosmusic]

A suspension has to do with a chord’s 3rd being replaced with the 2nd or 4th. The third is ‘suspended’.

Suspension could be any chord tone. Classical theory likes to categorize them by the degree of the suspension and degree of the resolution.

2-1 suspension, 4-3 suspension, etc.

So I guess technically that means an F dim could be some kind of whacky suspension in the right situation. Modal interchange thing makes more sense though.

But truth is with the diminished things they kind of all sound good if they voicelead. Love those things.

[pamosmusic]

(As an aside: I love the Derek Trucks recording of this one.)

[pingu]

Thanks for the chart Ragman

|| F Eo | Dm Bo | F. C11 | F. ||
I don't think Bo is functioning as Fo to delay the resolution to F (since we are coming from Dm).

In this case Bo acts as a #IVo rather than Io, IMO.

Thanks Tal , Yes I think can hear it as a variation of
this (cliche)

|| F A7 | Bb. Bo | F/C C11. | F. . ||

(In fact It sounds like the TTrucks band is doing something
like that)

Velly Interlesting

[Chris236]

Suspension could be any chord tone. Classical theory likes to categorize them by the degree of the suspension and degree of the resolution.

2-1 suspension, 4-3 suspension, etc.

So I guess technically that means an F dim could be some kind of whacky suspension in the right situation. Modal interchange thing makes more sense though.

But truth is with the diminished things they kind of all sound good if they voicelead. Love those things.

right. Im coming from the jazz side of terminology/pedagogy of course and referring to a harmonic suspension vs a melodic one.

[pamosmusic]

right. Im coming from the jazz side of terminology/pedology of course.

Heathen.

[Chris236]

Heathen.

no doubt

[wolflen]

the tune is gospel flavored

Dr Billy Taylor - a jazz educator had a TV show on an indy channel in NY that brought me to the music

some time he would show how and why the ear likes sounds created by chords and melodic lines

If the sheet music that ragman posted is not to your liking..there are many others on line to see

the Bdim chord could function as a passing chord if the F/C is voiced this way followed by A7/C# and then Dmin7
as this is the sheet music version Rag posted

[pingu]

in the ‘key’ of F, Fdim7 is what’s known as an ‘auxiliary’ 1 chord.

Hope this helps.

C

Yes it does , "Auxiliary 1 chord"

I gonna use that term , ta Chris

[pingu]

the tune is gospel flavored

Dr Billy Taylor - a jazz educator had a TV show on an indy channel in NY that brought me to the music

some time he would show how and why the ear likes sounds created by chords and melodic lines

If the sheet music that ragman posted is not to your liking..there are many others on line to see

the Bdim chord could function as a passing chord if the F/C is voiced this way followed by A7/C# and then Dmin7
as this is the sheet music version Rag posted

OMG
I would have loved that show ....
"how and why the ear likes sounds created by chords and melodic lines"

Exactly ! yes that's a huge interest of mine
That's so well put Wolf ....

This thread has answered my 'Ambiguous Diminished
Question' really well ....
Thanks all

[Christian Miller]

This is a gospel tinged spin on a common classical cadence that also tunes up in jazz, in the latter case usually with a C7.

The Bo7 is moving to the dominant up a half step functioning as V/V of C11, but before it gets there it encounters this thing called a ‘cadential 6/4’ - the F/C. Jazzers don’t tend to think of it this way but this chord is actually considered a dominant chord in classical theory - a double suspension of one. It’s a decoration of the dominant.

Eg
C F/C Csus4 C | F
type of thing is all a V I

We don’t tend to play cadences like this in jazz, but the #IVo7 V6/4 I remains extremely common esp in older style jazz and churchy tunes

of course I regard functional analysis as bunkum, but there it is, I think that’s a fairly textbook answer, and not too bad. It represents the counterpoint of the situation, which is to say the F/C is a completely different animal to the root position chord and has a different role in harmony.

I think jazzers would tend to think of the F/C as a I chord, but actually the classical way is a bit more like Barry Harris’s way where it’s understood to be a move Bo—>C6 and we play the ‘6th on the 5th’.

In terms of jazz, note the chord progression, master in all twelve keys. Call it what you like.