Diminished function …. I wish I knew ….

[Chris236]

Diminished function …. I wish I knew ….

But I shouldn't think the fans gave a toss. Which is why I deleted.

yeah, not my cup of tea, but to each his own.

[mr. beaumont]

I'm gonna sit and figure out what Trucks does later. That version is pretty great. Kind of wish it was instrumental, but still pretty great.

[wolflen]

[QUOTE=Bop Head;1287505]Dr. Billy Taylor's mentor was Art Tatum, he was not just "a jazz educator with a TV show". His first bigger job was the Ben Webster Quartet, then he became the house pianist of Birdland and played with all the greats.

All true. Not to argue..I could go on for pages how Taylor motivated me to listen to more jazz music and learn about music.

His mastery of the piano and historic knowledge of music..classical and jazz made my hunger to learn an instrument grow

and it came to fruition when I studied with Ted Green for two years learning harmony and theory..and I thanked Dr Billy Taylor for that motivation

to keep learning and growing

[pingu]

So folks , am i allowed to call
Fo
an ‘Auxiliary one Diminished’
in the progession
Fo F

or is it misleading ?
if not , what can I call it ?
i need a name folks

[pingu]

In the Trucks version they didn't know what they were doing. There was a very funny noise at that point :-)

Bit rude ….

[Tal_175]

So folks , am i allowed to call
Fo
an ‘Auxiliary one Diminished’
in the progession
Fo F

or is it misleading ?
if not , what can I call it ?
i need a name folks

You need to provide more context. In the tiny progression Fo F, the diminished is on the strong beat so it appear like Aux one chord. But the progression you provided in the original post, this was not the case.

[Chris236]

So folks , am i allowed to call
Fo
an ‘Auxiliary one Diminished’
in the progession
Fo F

or is it misleading ?
if not , what can I call it ?
i need a name folks

LOL …I’ve always like the name Heather. Don’t know why.

The context is everything but more than likely, YES!

[pamosmusic]

So folks , am i allowed to call
Fo
an ‘Auxiliary one Diminished’
in the progession
Fo F

or is it misleading ?
if not , what can I call it ?
i need a name folks

In fairness, if you really need a name, your best bet is F diminished.

As far as the theory goes, it’s really about describing what you hear happening.

Do you hear it landing on a bit of a false ending and then resolving to the last chord? If so, probably that auxiliary diminished chord.

Do you hear it driving toward the V chord? If so, probably the passing or leading tone diminished, or #ivo.

[Chris236]

In fairness, if you really need a name, your best bet is F diminished.

As far as the theory goes, it’s really about describing what you hear happening.

Do you hear it landing on a bit of a false ending and then resolving to the last chord? If so, probably that auxiliary diminished chord.

Do you hear it driving toward the V chord? If so, probably the passing or leading tone diminished, or #ivo.

precisely

[pingu]

You need to provide more context. In the tiny progression Fo F, the diminished is on the strong beat so it appear like Aux one chord. But the progression you provided in the original post, this was not the case.

so what name can i use
irrespective of which beat it is placed
on …. ?

hey it might start off being Auxiliary
and then I do a bit of beat displacement (this is jazz) and
just like that , it’s changed it’s name !

half joking here ….

but is there not a name for it’s purely harmonic function ?

ps i thing i’m just going to go ahead with ‘Aux Dim’

its close enough (for jazz)

[pamosmusic]

so what name can i use
irrespective of which beat it is placed
on …. ?

hey it might start off being Auxiliary
and then I do a bit of beat displacement (this is jazz) and
just like that , it’s changed it’s name !

half joking here ….

but is there not a name for it’s purely harmonic function ?

ps i thing i’m just going to go ahead with ‘Aux Dim’

its close enough (for jazz)

Harmonic function *is* the context. You could call it F diminshed any old day of the week or you could even call it i o (one diminished) but anything else is naming its harmonic function … you you’d have to decide how it’s functioning.

[pingu]

1287626[/URL]]In fairness, if you really need a name, your best bet is F diminished.

As far as the theory goes, it’s really about describing what you hear happening.

Do you hear it landing on a bit of a false ending and then resolving to the last chord? If so, probably that auxiliary diminished chord.

Do you hear it driving toward the V chord? If so, probably the passing or leading tone diminished, or #ivo.

but i thought the leading tone dim
was Eo ?

[Chris236]

so what name can i use
irrespective of which beat it is placed
on …. ?

hey it might start off being Auxiliary
and then I do a bit of beat displacement (this is jazz) and
just like that , it’s changed it’s name !

half joking here ….

but is there not a name for it’s purely harmonic function ?

ps i thing i’m just going to go ahead with ‘Aux Dim’

its close enough (for jazz)

Honestly – if it’s moving between diatonic chords(bass note wise) it’s quite likely a passing diminished chord and you label it based on where it’s coming from. If it’s in the place of a diatonic chord it may be an auxiliary diminished chord, or it could be an enharmonic substitution for dominant seventh chord (like Eo in your original example). It’s a little tricky because they’re the beast with many heads and the context, ultimately is what defines the nature of the chord.

[pamosmusic]

Never heard it.

You should hear it.

Probably a relic from my old shaggy haired jam band days but Derek Trucks is my favorite non-jazz guitarist for sure.

And to Christian’s point about it maybe being a sort of blues gesture outlined in the harmony, they vamp the exact part we’re talking about at the end for a guitar solo and it’s 100% blues.

[Chris236]

You should hear it.

Probably a relic from my old shaggy haired jam band days but Derek Trucks is my favorite non-jazz guitarist for sure.

And to Christian’s point about it maybe being a sort of blues gesture outlined in the harmony, they vamp the exact part we’re talking about at the end for a guitar solo and it’s 100% blues.

yep. It’s a cliché in gospel music. No doubt.

[pamosmusic]

but i thought the leading tone dim
was Eo ?

Alright buckle up.

Short answer. Forget i called that Edim a leading tone chord. Chris’s answer was better. A leading tone dim chord is a dim chord a half step below the target. But listening to the tune, it’s definitely a C#dim which is definitely a leading tone chord.

Longer answer. I usually assume these dim triads in this context are stand-ins for dim7 chords. Dim 7 chords are all symmetrical. So every inversion is also its own root position dim7 chord.

C#dim7 — C#EGBb
Edim7 — EGBbDb
Gdim — G Bb Db Fb
Bbdim — Bb Db Fb Abb

Work out the enharmonic equivalents those are all the same pitches. So you only have three diminshed 7 chords. The one built off the root, the one built off the flat two, and the one built off the leading tone. So I usually just kind of simplify things for myself and say they’re all some version of one of those, relative to their target. Kind of streamlines the whole thing even though it takes eight pages to explain.

[Tal_175]

so what name can i use
irrespective of which beat it is placed
on …. ?

hey it might start off being Auxiliary
and then I do a bit of beat displacement (this is jazz) and
just like that , it’s changed it’s name !

half joking here ….

but is there not a name for it’s purely harmonic function ?

ps i thing i’m just going to go ahead with ‘Aux Dim’

its close enough (for jazz)

If you are still asking about how to understand you original progression (post number 1), forget auxiliary diminished.
If you show that progression to any experienced jazz musician and call the Bo "auxiliary diminished", they will disagree with you. They will probably consider treating Bo as #IV diminished and resolving it to F/C (or C6) a tasteful choice. Most posters already explained the function of the two diminished chords already in this thread.

You're trying to name the chords but in this case the names are describing harmonic devices. So the context, including whether the chord is placed on a strong beat or a weak beat, is relevant.

[Jimmy Smith]

Sick em rag.

[mr. beaumont]

Well y'all inspired me.

[pamosmusic]

PS. I'll let you into a secret. I've never once, in all the years, asked a theory question on here. Guess why! I go away and look it up in reliable sources... who, strangely, all agree.

Lol no they don’t.

[pingu]

Nice Jeff
that all seems present and correct !

[A. Kingstone]

Well y'all inspired me.

That's some pretty stuff!

[pingu]

Oh, give it up, old bean. You see rude everywhere. It's not 'rude', it's true. During the singing, when it comes to the Bo, there's a bit of a clash. If you're listening, that is. Calling it a crash or something is humour and it was said with a smiley. They obviously weren't quite coordinated at that point. But, as I said to Jeff, it looks like they were together in the solo.

That's all, do lighten up.

You want to know what to call this dratted Bo chord, right? I agree, there's some confusion around it. I'd say no because, having looked it up, an auxiliary dim chord has the same root as the one it resolves to. And the Bo hasn't. Personally, to me it's just a #IV diminished passing chord to get back to the tonic.

But tell me why you're so worried about what to call it. Does it really matter that much?

PS. I'll let you into a secret. I've never once, in all the years, asked a theory question on here. Guess why! I go away and look it up in reliable sources... who, strangely, all agree.

No that was rude ….

your responses to me
‘old bean’
’do lighten up’
etc is also rude ….

I’m getting a bit concerned about your attitude young man

[Jimmy Smith]

Rag'll get ya. He's not young either haha.

[Christian Miller]

I don’t like the pamo thing cos I think the bass line is important. When this progression appears in jazz tunes it tends to have this (3-4-)#4-5 bass line (OP example is a truncated example.)

but it’s a way of looking at it and it’s not ‘wrong’; the best theory is that you find helpful.

You get common tone dims (Fo7) as well but I regard them as different even though Bo7 is an inversion of Fo7.