Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[ragman1]

I think it's ambiguous because the Bb only occurs over the G7. But there are no natural A's, are there?

Get out of that!

[djg]

My hero Christian Miller literally says that the minor seventh "weakens the tonalty"

does he mention whether that's a good or bad thing?

[alez]

Then why aren't you trying it out? Sit down and find out! Don't just slosh around in a lot of other peoples' ideas and become totally confused, it's not worth it.

The nice thing about a simple minor triad is that you can play what you want over it, right? You can superimpose all those sounds you suggest and they'll be fine... depending on the tune you're playing. Your solo has to fit the tune otherwise it's all just abstract, theoretical, and rather pointless.

Oh, absolutely! I do it all the time but very often I'm not sure what to make of sounds that are new to me. Formal knowledge can help educate the ear even though music was first, then came theory.

[alez]

does he mention whether that's a good or bad thing?

Ha ha! He says "don't use the minor seventh because it weakens the tonalty", a clear enough sentence!

But let's not take it out of context, he's made it very clear that the sentence is not a rule set in stone but much the opposite.

[ragman1]

Sorry, I'm not alez.

Whether it's good or bad is a subjective view. The fact is that, yes, making a solid D minor into a Dm7 does soften it a bit. On the other hand, that's what makes the jazz sound what it is. Otherwise we're back into vanilla sounds and that's not the point at all.

[pamosmusic]

I know. But what I'm really waiting for is someone to say it all depends on the tune, the harmonies, the style, the player's ear, experience, and so on.

Lol. What I said:

I think I would need to see explicitly that there’s a flat 7, otherwise I’m probably going to either avoid it in favor of the 6 or play a natural 7 in scalar kind of stuff.

and

Melodic minor would be equally common. Thinking of the last couple bars of the A sections in Autumn Leaves as an example.

What Christian said:

For instance soloing on a chord is kind of different to writing a melody. If in doubt, study the song.

and

My lack of patience with theory and scale talk… it all depends on what you are doing.

and

It’s all relative to how you hear music. But it can’t be based on rules because not all the players follow the rules.

What I said (quoting Maestro Pete):

No matter what they’re listening too, what people want from music is “intentionality.”

… and then what you said …

If it says m7 on the lead sheet, play it.

… and of course stating as fact that Blue Bossa was in “harmonic minor” even though there isn’t a B natural to be found.

That makes you an interesting fellow.

Maybe even a silly goose.

[ragman1]

Oh, absolutely! I do it all the time but very often I'm not sure what to make of sounds that are new to me. Formal knowledge can help educate the ear even though music was first, then came theory.

Go from where you are. If it sounds good to you, keep it.

Guitar is like driving a car. Do you drive? Can you learn how to negotiate the roads from a book? It's impossible, you need to get out there and learn as you go. The more experience you have the better you get. Same with guitar.

I'm not saying the book has no place either. Of course it has, but the practical is far more important.

[pamosmusic]

I think it's ambiguous because the Bb only occurs over the G7. But there are no natural A's, are there?

Get out of that!

And the second measure C minor. Just in passing, but it’s certainly not a B natural.

You clearly don’t know this tune?

[ragman1]

Lol.

You're just arguing, you haven't read what I've said.

[pcjazz]

Often the chart simply says m (triad) and I'm not sure what will go best with it in terms of added colours, major sixth and/or minor seventh and/or major seventh. That scenario is probably a good summary of my problem. From your posts, I'm thinking:

• If a m7 sound is required / intended, it is unlikely that the chart will have a m triad. Most likely it will have m7 written and the minor seventh and major sixth will sound good.
• If the chart says m or m6, the major sixth will sound good and one seventh (minor o major) will sound good, the other not so (dull, out of place, whatever), depending on aesthetic conventions, period and such. This thread already has lots of great information on such details.
• If the chart says m_maj7, the major sixth and the major seventh will sound good.

Agree?

You may be relying too heavily on what the chart says — fake books are not infallible although some are better than others. Let your ear overrule your eyes.

[pamosmusic]

You're just arguing, you haven't read what I've said.

Yeah I’ve read it all.

You didn’t seem to understand the question.
You didn’t seem to have fully read the answers.**
You didn’t seem to know the tune about which you were pronouncing.
You were patronizing the guy who was asking.

** some evidence of this to be seen in the fact that, following the “lol” you quoted, was a list of instances where other people were saying all the stuff you’re saying you were waiting for someone to say. Which you neglected to quote.

This all adds up to silliness.

[alez]

Go from where you are. If it sounds good to you, keep it.

Guitar is like driving a car. Do you drive? Can you learn how to negotiate the roads from a book? It's impossible, you need to get out there and learn as you go. The more experience you have the better you get. Same with guitar.

I'm not saying the book has no place either. Of course it has, but the practical is far more important.

I'm all about this, chiefly thanks to this forum. (I'm a trumpeter, BTW, but the point is the exact same.)

A thread like this can give you useful pointers to try out. Less beating around the bush. Having both is very valuable to me.

You may be relying too heavily on what the chart says — fake books are not infallible although some are better than others. Let your ear overrule your eyes.

I try hard and I'm getting better at it over time because I keep doing it.

Let me rephrase. Where I wrote "if the chart says[...]", I could've written "if the comping guy is playing[...]". And I'd be soloing over that comping.

[ragman1]

(I'm a trumpeter, BTW, but the point is the exact same.)

It is. In fact, trumpet is rather good for this tune.

How much of your playing are you recording? You should absolutely, definitely, record it - against a backing track so both are audible. Then you'll know.

If it obviously clashes, find out where and why and change it. Progress guaranteed :-)

[Christian Miller]

does he mention whether that's a good or bad thing?

Let me answer that with the words ‘Wes Montgomery’

[Christian Miller]

Ha ha! He says "don't use the minor seventh because it weakens the tonalty", a clear enough sentence!

But let's not take it out of context, he's made it very clear that the sentence is not a rule set in stone but much the opposite.

I think that m7 weakens the sound of minor, in that it makes it sound less minor. I think it’s the major triad b3-5-b7 that does it. It’s not a good or bad thing… but you have to be definitive sometimes to make a point.

I had to unlearn playing m7 on minor to play the styles of music I needed to play. But if you just play 60s style hard bop or something you might not see a distinction. It all depends on who you listen and what you like.

check out Nica’s Dream for further info.

[Tal_175]

Mark Levine says in his theory book that harmonic minor is rarely used in jazz. For a while I thought this was a strange thing to say as harmonic minor as chord scale over dominants (ie Phrygian dominant) is used a lot in jazz. But I realized later that he probably means that the use of harmonic minor as the chord scale for tonic minor is rare. Now that makes sense.

[pamosmusic]

Mark Levine says in his theory book that harmonic minor is rarely used in jazz. For a while I thought this was a strange thing to say as harmonic minor as chord scale over dominants (ie Phrygian dominant) is used a lot in jazz. But I realized later that he probably means the use of harmonic minor as the chord scale for tonic minor. Now that makes sense.

I remember reading this and thinking it weird too. It’s like just right there in some tunes. Donna Lee comes right to mind.

I honestly think it’s still kind of weird, even though you’re probably right about what he meant. I mean … it’s also not uncommon over a dominant chord, though often enough with some modification to smooth over that awkward big second.

I think that’s kind of the tricky thing about theory projects like Levine’s. I like the book but some things have so many caveats attached, you kind of have to wonder.

[pamosmusic]

I remember the musical examples being the coolest part of that book but I also remember probably half of them being Mulgrew Miller. And Mulgrew Miller is the bomb, but that kind of goes to Christian’s point. That’s probably just who Levine was into and how he processes harmony. If half the examples had been Monk, or Herbie, or Barry or something, the rules of theory would’ve had to be different.

ARRANGING PROFESSORS: Don’t harmonize your melody in seconds.

Thelonious Monk: lol.

So no book like that can really be definitive except in a narrow kind of way.

[ragman1]

Mark Levine says in his theory book that harmonic minor is rarely used in jazz. For a while I thought this was a strange thing to say as harmonic minor as chord scale over dominants (ie Phrygian dominant) is used a lot in jazz. But I realized later that he probably means the use of harmonic minor as the chord scale for tonic minor as being rare. Now that makes sense.

That's right. The harmonic minor per se is too 'pure' as the main sound for jazz, although it depends on the tune. Context is all, as usual.

[Christian Miller]

Mark Levine says in his theory book that harmonic minor is rarely used in jazz. For a while I thought this was a strange thing to say as harmonic minor as chord scale over dominants (ie Phrygian dominant) is used a lot in jazz. But I realized later that he probably means the use of harmonic minor as the chord scale for tonic minor as being rare. Now that makes sense.

Levine does make statements several times in that book that he appears to walk back later on. Tbh on reflection I think he was rubbing up against the problems I was talking about.

[Christian Miller]

yea, he'd come to mind. he is interesting to analyze since he represents such a large span from charlie christian to modal jazz. there are not too many b7s though on tunes like airegin or 4on6.

It was 4on6 I was thinking of - but the Smokin’ version? Wes uses the Dorian tonality quite a lot in that performance. Also on that Nica’s dream performance which was the same year iirc.

I’m haven’t transcribed the the IJG version, but it sounds like he’s staying on a more ‘tonic minor’/m6 tonality on that one from a quick re listen.

Given incredible jazz guitar was recorded in 1960 and Smokin’ in 1965… it’s perhaps to be expected historicallly?

i think a distinction has also to be made for real minor tonics (blue bossa, airegin, bebop, etc) vs tonicized II chords (honeysuckle rose, speak low, tear it down).

I think it depends a lot on the song and the player… but maybe? I guess the b7 is more prevalent on the ii chord.

The iim7 is often treated as a minor tonic by soloists whatever’s in the original changes?

[Christian Miller]

what he does in all versions is that the b7 is often used going to the 6, making it basically a ii-V, or as a part of a IV chord arpeggio. both do indeed make the chord less minor. the maj7 is used for runs going up, enclosures of the root via the 9 or his patented whole tone licks over minor.

Well if we are talking about a direct stepwise b7-6 in minor you can find that move in Six Appeal (iirc) by Charlie Christian or the bridge of the melody of Douce Ambience.

So true minor to me is less a matter of this or that scale and more a matter of emphasis. As you say 7 goes up, b7 goes down. It’s a bit like the melodic minor or some Arabic Maqams, Indian raags and so on with an ascending and descending form. You even see it in Miles’s so what solo.

To me the most Dorian to ever have dorianed comes from Wes’s explicit use of the m13 arpeggio in the first chorus of the 65 4on6 recording….

he definitely went more "dorian" over the years as the evolution of tunes like "jingles" show. he also added impressions to his set list.

Regarding the m6 chord note generally, I’ve heard people give credit to Eddie Durham for introducing both Charlie Christian and the first testament Basie orchestra to the m6 tonality (and by extension the ur-jazz minor tonality).

However given Django et al seem to be using that sound in the early 30s, there seems more to it. I’d love to learn more of how m6 went from being a subdominant sound to a tonic one even as the story of how the b7 because accepted on minor seems quite clear…

And then that sort of weird blurred line between the minor and dominant realms. It’s an interesting one…

[Reg]

Yea... generally we're living.... like now, or at least the last 40 years when playing jazz.

The more important point might be.... be musically organized with whatever you choose to play.

It's really gets muddy, boring and I could go on... but the point is at some point one should be able hear and understand the differences between using different MINOR references.

What you play....what Minor you choose to use... has harmonic and melodic implications.

It's not always about what...YOU feel, hear etc.... There are very standard common practice harmonic/melodic usages.

Most old standards use Nat. or Aeolian Min. as Reference. Which generally implies use of Harmonic Min. as harmonic and melodic pathway for helping to create Dominant Cadence. The V7 to I- . And also implies use of Borrowing and embellishment as musical organization for expanding.... How a harmonic or melodic "Reference" is musically Developed using musical Relationships. (this is how I was taught and played as kid.. 60's and early 70's.)

For the last 50 years... Dorian has also become common reference as a I-7 chord. Which has made common practice, the use of Dorian and Melodic Min. as another pathway for creating Dominant cadence as well as Dom. resolution and expanding Sub-Dom. resolutions, and framing of Blue Notes and Modal Concepts.

The last 20 years as opened even more doors for understanding possible usages of musical organization.

What has become standard is not to mix and match....

So for a possible example... using Blue Bossa.... You need to start with an analysis, or at least decide on the basic musical organization from where to start from... The basic Reference. That doesn't mean you can't mix and match or use embellishment etc... but it's done with understanding of what your implying.

What that means is.... your deciding on what Harmonic and melodic organizations your going to use, create relationships with and develop etc.... And where..... in the Form of the Tune etc...

So if from your analysis, someone else's analogy... verbal discussion or however you decide how to approach playing a tune, even if you don't go through this approach..... when you play....players like ME, and I'm just an average working jazz player will know from what you play... what your implying and want to go musically. So from that moment and next time through the tune.... we'll know how to also expand what we're playing and all be on the same musical page together during our interactions and reactions... playing jazz.

So example... Blue Bossa.... if your calling C- as implied in melody, the Relative Min. of Key of Eb..... Nat. min. Aeolian etc... You would be implying a simplified Analysis of A B form 8+8

ll Cmin l Cmin l F- .... l F- ... l G7 l G7 l Cmin l Cmin l ( I- , IV- ,V7 , I-)


l Ab7 l Ab7 l Dbma7 l Dbma7 l G7 l G7 l Cmin l Cmin ll ( bVI7 , bIIma , V7 , I- )

There are other analysis ... I'm it keeping simple and leaving out the implied related II-'s of the V chords.

This would be old school .... and still kicks ass. As long as you can play LOL.

Generally I like to play C- as Dorian more of a Bluesy C-7 D-7 feel and keep F-7 as Dorian vamp feel ...
and I even play D7alt to G7alt to C-7 for turnaround. I like playing Chord Patterns ( series of chords used to imply a Tonal target )
Part of creating relationships and expanding harmonic as well as melodic possibilities. It's like embellishment but with modal organization. I gotta go... I'll expand more later...
Reg

[Christian Miller]

To get a bit granular, a hand out I was preparing for a vid I didn't get around to.. I might do it now, much of the work has been done

[rpjazzguitar]

To get a bit granular, a hand out I was preparing for a vid I didn't get around to.. I might do it now, much of the work has been done

Very nice handout. Thanks for posting it.

Even though I know the underlying material at some level, I still had to think about it to translate the scale names into the actual differences in notes.

Natural minor has b6 and b7.
Melodic minor has 6 and 7.

I wonder if it would be difficult (well, it would for me, but in principle) to find examples of great soloists using the other two options, meaning b6-7 and 6-b7? And, for that matter, three or four of those notes in the solo.

I still wonder if it would be simpler to label the minor scales with the 6 and 7 in the scale name. e.g. Cmb6b7. Cm6b7 and so on.

And, if that might lead to teaching all of them as one 9 note scale with the 6 and 7 selected based on the chord of the moment.

Not that this is really different, but the internal math strikes me as easier.