Is minor "home" (Im) dorian, melodic, neither?

[pingu]

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And sometimes you get told to avoid perfectly good things. Like the 13th on a m7 because something something semitones.

ha ha yeah right !

[alez]

anyway here’s a vid I did on the subject a while back - I think it covers all the points in my last post iirc

This is GOOD I had to watch it before going to bed, it was too tempting to postpone.

I have now gathered so much food for thought, I'm in heaven.

[wolflen]

I just played some Steely Dan tunes with some advanced fusion players..after we traded some playing tricks and stuff

one tune..Dont Take Me Alive is technically in C minor (so says the sheet music) It seems the Dan by passes the written word on some of their
stuff.

I think Larry Carlton does the solo work on this one..

now he seems to cater to a minor feel..but its not your theory version of minor anything..it crosses boundries without a care

and some of the chord work that is part of his solo could be Hendrix on a good hit of acid

but it ends on the final note of the melody..making minor fans happy Im sure

My take on minor theory/harmony..takes a wide turn on the Major7 minor chords in the Melodic/Harmonic minor framework

There is a augmented triad embedded in this very hip (to me) chord..so in my woodshed I used the augmented scale and all that it has to offer

three major and minor triads..a major third apart..for the major chords I approach them as lydian flavored..which adds some crunch to the augmented scale
now having a chromatic blues flavor if wanted or needed..it also can be an altered dominant sub and used as such in my solo thinking
which of course brings us to the melodic minor and its exotic friends ..which now can be used as part of the three minor triads in the aug scale

all this of course takes alot of time/work to experiment with..and I use the three diminished scales and their embedded chords with this kind of stuff..

some is hit and miss but listen to the Dan tune and Carltons solo and you wonder.. outside of the ending note..are they on the same page

and to the topic on hand..is this kind of minor theory/harmony used in the improvisation aspect of jazz with intention

who said you have to use minor scales over minor chords...to me a minor 6/9 is a dom 13 (no root) and accepting that..we are off to the races

[ragman1]

This is crazy

That's right.

If it says m7 on the lead sheet, play it. A minor tune is usually harmonic minor. Melodic minor is only used when applicable. Natural minor is rarely used so forget it.

The M7 isn't hard or soft, it's just a particular flavour of major chord. Sometimes the final chord of a tune sounds better as a 6 because the M7 can sound a bit floaty whereas the 6 sound is more stable.

The rest is academic BS.

[pamosmusic]

That's right.

If it says m7 on the lead sheet, play it. Natural minor is rarely used so forget it. Melodic minor is only used when applicable.

The M7 isn't hard or soft, it's just a particular flavour of major chord. Sometimes the final chord of a tune sounds better as a 6 because the M7 can sound a bit floaty whereas the 6 sound is more stable.

The rest is academic BS.

Oh good.

You’re sort of skipping the question. If the chord is a minor 6, should you play a b7 along with it, or a natural 7? Approach that 6 from a half step or whole?

Autumn Leaves is usually written as ending with a straight minor triad. Are you only allowed to play the triad? Or can you play other notes too? Which ones?

It’s not academic BS. It’s literally just like … trying to understand the song you’re playing.

As for the M7 and M6 distinction, you’re just using the word “floaty” and I believe we settled on the word “melancholy,” which I don’t recall being academic jargon exactly. Major 7 sounds like Misty. Major 6 sounds like A Train.

The whole knee jerk dismissal of people talking about theory on this forum gets tired quick. The question was about theory, posted on a forum entitled “Theory” … so I don’t know what the big deal is about talking theory.

[ragman1]

You’re sort of skipping the question.

No, I'm not, I'm just not confused about it. Straight tunes are usually harmonic. Modal tunes are Dorian. If it starts with a m6 play what you want. But not harmonic.

Blue Bossa: C harmonic.
So What: D Dorian.
Summertime: A melodic.

[pamosmusic]

No, I'm not, I'm just not confused about it. Straight tunes are usually harmonic. Modal tunes are Dorian. If it starts with a m6 play what you want. But not harmonic.

Blue Bossa: C harmonic.
So What: D Dorian.
Summertime: A melodic.

I think the melody of Blue Bossa would disagree.

[ragman1]

You want me to have a discussion. Wrong person. I'm not necessarily dictated to by the melody in a solo situation. Neither should you be.

[pamosmusic]

You want me to have a discussion. Wrong person.

Pardon me. I just assumed because you joined the discussion.

[ragman1]

I just don't see the point in confusing poor alez, whose head is already in a dizzy spin, with things beyond his ken. Help him, keep it simple.

[pamosmusic]

I just don't see the point in confusing poor alez, whose head is already in a dizzy spin, with things beyond his ken. Help him, keep it simple.

Simple, but like ….. correct also would be good.

[ragman1]

Correct is usually simple.

[pamosmusic]

I just don't see the point in confusing poor alez, whose head is already in a dizzy spin, with things beyond his ken. Help him, keep it simple.

Also interesting how folks who tend toward knee jerk accusations of academic pretense also seem really quick to be patronizing of others. Feels like projection sometimes.

Alez seems fine.

[ragman1]

Wrong, no pretence. I wouldn't know about alez, you're speaking for him. He says he's in thought heaven (he says) but that's not reality.

I've just tried it. Not a performance, just a little try-out. Interesting. First solo (over Cm7) I used Ab. Sounds fine. When I tried a natural A as a first solo, it didn't, it sounded pretentious. The natural A's crept in later. There's one right at the end, over G7b9. Ab would have sounded really tame there.

Anyway, so I stick to what I said. I wouldn't use melodic minor or dorian until the mood dictated it, personally. But you seem to like it according to your previous posts.

So you want to tell me which is 'correct'?

[pamosmusic]

Wrong, no pretence. I wouldn't know about alez, you're speaking for him. He says he's in thought heaven (he says) but that's not reality.

I've just tried it. Not a performance, just a little try-out. Interesting. First solo (over Cm7) I used Ab. Sounds fine. When I tried a natural A as a first solo, it didn't, it sounded pretentious. The natural A's crept in later. There's one right at the end, over G7b9. Ab would have sounded really tame there.

Anyway, so I stick to what I said. I wouldn't use melodic minor or dorian until the mood dictated it, personally. But you seem to like it according to your previous posts.

So you want to tell me which is 'correct'?

You, sir, are an interesting fellow.

[ragman1]

You, sir, are an interesting fellow.

I know. But what I'm really waiting for is someone to say it all depends on the tune, the harmonies, the style, the player's ear, experience, and so on. Because, if we're talking about soloing, it usually does.

Mind you, in the case of Blue Bossa, the first three chords are a straightforward i - iv - V in C harmonic minor. Speaks for itself. It sure ain't melodic with all those Ab's knocking around.

But we all know you can push the i into a m6 to make it sound nice.

[alez]

If the chord is a minor 6, should you play a b7 along with it, or a natural 7?

Often the chart simply says m (triad) and I'm not sure what will go best with it in terms of added colours, major sixth and/or minor seventh and/or major seventh. That scenario is probably a good summary of my problem. From your posts, I'm thinking:

• If a m7 sound is required / intended, it is unlikely that the chart will have a m triad. Most likely it will have m7 written and the minor seventh and major sixth will sound good.
• If the chart says m or m6, the major sixth will sound good and one seventh (minor o major) will sound good, the other not so (dull, out of place, whatever), depending on aesthetic conventions, period and such. This thread already has lots of great information on such details.
• If the chart says m_maj7, the major sixth and the major seventh will sound good.

Agree?

[Christian Miller]

The beauty of 6th chords is you can do what you like with the seventh. Same for major. This is useful for the blues and so on.

OTOH not all minor chords have that 6th sound.

in terms of autumn leaves I usually opt for a m6 there (it’s in the melody.)

But a minor triad is pretty. People think that cos we are jazzers we have to make all the chords fancy. I think Barry’s solo above shows this is not always the case. When it comes to voicings it’s often nice to avoid including a 6 or 7 entirely.

So as a non triad option I like m(add9). There’s some nice quadratonic voicings for it too…

Gm(add9)
x x x 3 3 5
x x 7 3 x 3
x x 5 2 3 x
x 5 5 3 x x
Etc

To be succinct I think rpj’s post about the moving 6 and 7 covers it. Joe Pass’s approach to theory was loose and I like this. There’s a danger in trying to pin everything down. And of course there are melodies in jazz that do the 1-7-b7-6 run down and so on. It’s all out there

[Christian Miller]

I know. But what I'm really waiting for is someone to say it all depends on the tune, the harmonies, the style, the player's ear, experience, and so on. Because, if we're talking about soloing, it usually does.

Mind you, in the case of Blue Bossa, the first three chords are a straightforward i - iv - V in C harmonic minor. Speaks for itself. It sure ain't melodic with all those Ab's knocking around.

But we all know you can push the i into a m6 to make it sound nice.

its a b flat in the melody though…

[ragman1]

Often the chart simply says m (triad) and I'm not sure what will go best with it in terms of added colours, major sixth and/or minor seventh and/or major seventh.

Then why aren't you trying it out? Sit down and find out! Don't just slosh around in a lot of other peoples' ideas and become totally confused, it's not worth it.

The nice thing about a simple minor triad is that you can play what you want over it, right? You can superimpose all those sounds you suggest and they'll be fine... depending on the tune you're playing. Your solo has to fit the tune otherwise it's all just abstract, theoretical, and rather pointless.

[ragman1]

its a b flat in the melody though…

I know, apparently Dorian. But that Bb only comes in on the G7 and becomes the #9 blue note. Which isn't the same.

It's not a modal tune. Start soloing right from the beginning with C Dorian (Bb maj) and see if it fits. It doesn't really, sounds odd. Or don't you think so?

[Christian Miller]

interesting case study on the flexibility of minor…

i spent a lot of time listening to what the horns do on Nica’s Dream. Unusually, the two minors (Bb and Ab) in this tune are very specifically m(maj7) so you’d expect this to be reflected in the solo lines right?

Well for Blue Mitchell, very much so. Straight melodic minor. Which is interesting because apparently he had no theory (according to djg). But it could be out of the Levine book. So he’s really hearing that sound.

For Junior Cook the answer is very much NO!

Anyway have a listen. This is why I find it very hard to take the definite pronouncements of jazz theory books seriously. It just depends.

for Wes playing on this tune, he mixes it up between Dorian and melodic minor.

So he sometimes disregards the major 7th in the chord. People didn’t use to be so anal about this stuff. There’s something about relying on a written body of info that encourages this type of anality, I suspect.

I did some transcriptions for a video that I may make at some point. I’ll find them and pop them up should the interest be there.

Furthermore what is true for minor is also true for applied minor substitutes. You are not limited to Ab melodic minor on G7 for instance … you can play Ab minor melodies period (the 1-7-b7-6 is a bop cliche in this setting.) See also Barry’s m6-dim concept but actually it’s looser than that.

Its just minor.

[Christian Miller]

I know, apparently Dorian. But that Bb only comes in on the G7 and becomes the #9 blue note. Which isn't the same.

It's not a modal tune. Start soloing right from the beginning with C Dorian (Bb maj) and see if it fits. It doesn't really, sounds odd. Or don't you think so?

Dorian? The key signature has three flats. The melody is pure natural minor until we hit the modulation. To be honest I’d probably avoid the m6 on this tune comping. madd9 again maybe haha.

[ragman1]

Dorian? The key signature has three flats. The melody is pure natural minor until we hit the modulation. To be honest I’d probably avoid the m6 on this tune comping. madd9 again maybe haha.

Not interested. Go and boggle someone else. You pointed out the Bb because it's not a natural B as in C harmonic.

In any case, I don't think like that. The solos I did in that clip weren't based on any of that stuff. I just played what I wanted and I can't remember now anyway. G7 was bound to be some form of alt, b9, or bluesy thing, that's about it. If I wanted to use a nat B on the Cm or a nat E on the Fm, I would. Makes life more interesting, you know :-)

[Christian Miller]

Not interested. Go and boggle someone else. You pointed out the Bb because it's not a natural B as in C harmonic.

In any case, I don't think like that. The solos I did in that clip weren't based on any of that stuff. I just played what I wanted and I can't remember now anyway. G7 was bound to some form of alt, b9, or bluesy thing, that's about it. If I wanted to use a nat B on the Cm or a nat E on the Fm, I would. Makes life more interesting, you know :-)

You live your best life, bucko.

Just so we are clear you don’t think the first 8 bars of Blue Bossa’s melody are in C dorian?