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Sorry if this is a dumb question. I am learning Blue Bossa. In measure 6 the melody note is a Bb over a G7 chord? To my ear, it seems like the melody note should be a "B" (MAJ 3rd of the G7). Can someone explain? In the harmonic context of the song the G7 does not seem like it is a diminished harmony. and even if the song implied a Galt harmony, it seems pretty dissonant to have a minor 3rd played with a MAJ 3rd?
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08-26-2023 12:01 PM
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Theory wise, it's a sharp 9. Which is a common extension over dominant chords. You just have to get your ear used to it.
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Christian’s spidey sense has been activated and he will be here shortly to tell us about the Blue Third.
Jimmys not wrong. I kind of think of it the same way in that particular spot. But minor thirds over major chords are a pretty common blues gesture, separate and apart from their harmonic function. Think of the way you played a minor pentatonic scale over a major chord when you first started soloing over blues tunes. Blues is more complex and interesting than that, but it’s there. Lots of ways that son of a gun can function.
But it would also explain the name Blue Bossa.
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Precisely. It's a dissonance - what about that is confusing?
Originally Posted by nipsnertz
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You’re using too much theory.
If you HAVE to label it, I guess a leading tone towards the next chord. Bb being the 7 on a C-7. But you don’t have to go that far.
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Agreed. There's that too. Minor 3rds over chords with major 3rds in general is one of the most common and basic dissonances there is. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I mean … what would be little enough theory? Originally Posted by AllanAllen
He’s just looking for a simple name for what he’s hearing.
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That’s actually known among us former shaggy haired classic rock dorks as The Hendrix Chord (from Purple Haze). Originally Posted by nipsnertz
So it’s an odd sound, but pretty common in blues and jazz, and all their offshoots.
EDIT: it’s also worth noting that the tension doesn’t make the dissonance. It’s the interval inside the chord. Major third right next to minor third is crunchy as all hell. Major third up the octave to the same note gives you the same major seventh interval you hear in in a major seventh chord. Dissonant, but pleasantly so.
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Also if we’re talking about tensions and stuff, it’s more of a passing note in this context. It’s not there because it’s a common tone with the next chord. The melody leads back through the Ab to the G, which is the fifth of the next chord. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
So to the OPs point about it being very dissonant, it’s working more like a passing note than like a chord tone. You land on that note a few times, which gives you that little bit of tension, but it never sits on it long, and eventually resolves down to a super stable chord tone.
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I was thinking OP can’t see the forest because of all the trees. To me the tune is C- then Db major. So a Bb is the dominant 7 of C- and nothing to do with the V chord it’s happening under. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Maybe I’ll think about it differently next year.
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i turn up here only to find my work is already done for me! Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Well the forest is made up of trees. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Theres a reason why Sugar sounds different than Blue Bossa which sounds different than Mr PC which sounds different than Softly.
The harmony makes a difference.
And if the goal is to reproduce a sound you heard in the tune, it would help to understand what’s making that sound happen.
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Go have a drink, or treat yourself to a nice dinner on me. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Funny enough, I was playing Sugar last night and I kept falling into things I do in Softly. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I might as well learn Mr. PC and finish the C minor suite.
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It's deliberately written that way so you get a 'blue' sound. That's the particular charm of this tune Originally Posted by nipsnertz
(Bb over G7 is the #9 of the chord, hence the blues feel. It's absolutely supposed to be dissonant. Play it with gusto!).
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Bb is also diatonic to the key of C minor. The entire melody is diatonic to C minor and Db major in bars 9-12. The composer probably wanted to keep it that way and have the chords beneath create tension. You could use an altered note, but it would change the sound and contour of the melody. So diatonic, blue note, #9.
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 08-26-2023 at 03:59 PM.
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If you play a G7#9 these two ways:
you can see the same notes occur, both the nat B and the Bb together. And hear the blue sound, of course.
If the natural B wasn't there it would just sound like G minor, right? It's the B/Bb clash that makes the G7 sound blue.
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Little enough theory can be none whatsoever resulting in Originally Posted by pamosmusic
a simple name for what he's hearing called "how it goes".
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Okay. Seems like that would be helpful in this context. Originally Posted by pauln
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At the risk of seeming flippant, the Bb is over the the G7 there because that's how Kenny Dorham wrote it, and he most likely just preferred it to a B natural at that point in the line. You can play any note over any chord and analyze that note's function vs the harmony, and there's more than one way to explain why Bb is "legal" there. Because it's #9 of the Gdom7 chord (not the 3rd), and because in a descending line in C minor Bb is more diatonic than B natural would be mine. But we don't know KD's actual thought process (SFAIK, anyway), only the outcome. Swapping in a B natural works there, but to me it make it feel like the line should change direction rather than keep doing down (as the melody in the head does). YMMV.
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Well it IS "blue" bossa.
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LOL Originally Posted by pamosmusic
PS. And he did, sort of, like little disappointed, but....
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The blue note... Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Where is the OP? I really hate vanishers.
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In this particular case, I wouldn’t call it a #9, I’d call it a b3rd. Kinda fits better with the blues, where theory can be a bit stretched. Remember, this is not western classical music we are reading, so the rules don’t always apply.
in your chart, is it notated as a Bb or an A#? If it’s Bb, I’d call it a flat 3rd. Especially if the key signature is written in C.
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