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Hi!
Does this modulation sound ok to you (1:10->
? I've had this arrangement in a key of C for years and now I wanted to add modulation into key of B (played in the video). There is also tabs/notation on the screen for you if you like to try it.
Printable tabs/notation: Landscape Guitar Covers
Cheers,, Mikko
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08-18-2023 10:36 AM
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I think it works and it's very effective. Lovely arrangement.
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The playing and arrangement of the harmony are terrific.
The modulation to B sounds a little jarring, which I guess is why you asked.
I think it can work, but the transition might need a different chord, or chords. One approach would be to add a bar or two of a pattern voice led to facilitate the modulation. Perhaps pivoting on an E or a B note, which are two notes that the Key of C and Key of B have in common.
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Changing keys from C to B was much used in the early classic era - 1790-1830 - where you would re-spell G7 as Gaug6, thereby changing its function. It would go to F#, then B or Bm. It could happen smoothly and quickly within a bar. Much quicker than going around the cycle.
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Thank you very much!
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Thank you very much! I tryed to be little bit experimental with the chords in the transition but not go too far from the current sound palette. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I will think about your advice there.
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That is really interesting. Didn't know that. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I like this modulation because it isn't too obvious and corny IMHO. It has this subtle feel that something happened there.
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I'm not sure what a Gaug6 is. Thanks Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Really nice, lyrical playing Mikko, with great attention to the arrangement.
With regard to your question about this particular modulation, I liked the way you got there, but maybe not so much the actual key you landed on. I couldn't tell you why right now. I would also try not to mirror the same melody in the modulated key (B maj in ths case), and maybe modulate back to the home key at the end. That said, it's always good to hear you
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G7 = GBDF Originally Posted by garybaldy
Gaug6 = GBDE#
Obviously F and E# are the same sound, but to a Classical-era mind they both have different harmonic functions. One is a V7. The other is a bVI chord in B Major, which falls to F#(7), then B or Bm.
It was a very quick modulation down a semitone, which saved them going around the cycle of 5ths.
There were basically three types of Aug6 chord back then: Italian, French, and German. It even has its own Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augmented_sixth_chord
Sorry, Mikko. I don't mean to distract minds away from your wonderful arrangement!
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Thank you. Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
(Edit: The G7 could be the tritone of C#7 going to F#7)
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Don't worry. This is actually fascinating. I have to study it. Thank you! Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Thank you very much Peter! You have point there about mirroring the melody. Usually I vary it for keeping the interest. For some reason I didn't do it here. Originally Posted by Peter C
Really nice, lyrical playing Mikko, with great attention to the arrangement.
With regard to your question about this particular modulation, I liked the way you got there, but maybe not so much the actual key you landed on. I couldn't tell you why right now. I would also try not to mirror the same melody in the modulated key (B maj in ths case), and maybe modulate back to the home key at the end. That said, it's always good to hear you
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I enjoy your playing very much, thank you!
As for the modulation - I like the harmonization idea and voice-leading there but I do not hear it as modulation)
No, of course, it is a modulation formally.
but the track of harmonic sequence does not imply modulation to that particular key to my ear
To me the effect is approximately the same as with unprepared modulation like you could take almost any chord and it would have been approximately the same effect.
So to me it sounds like a beautiful sequence that leads to an unprepared modulation.
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Rob, could you kindly give some examples of actual pieces of the period? Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I just really would like to see how it works in the context of the whole piece of that period but nothing comes to mind immidiately.
Thank youLast edited by Jonah; 08-21-2023 at 06:27 AM.
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Oh.. one that came to my mind is Schubert's Auf dem Flusse (from e minor to eb-minor if I remeber correctly) and there it is relaly dramatic, the change of key is before the cadence of the phrase and then it goes back to e-minor immidiately.
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Jonah, check the Sor studies. He throws them in occasionally. I haven't time to quote you bar numbers, but they are definitely there.
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If Mikko doesn't mind, I'll place this video here where I discuss harmony for my classical-guitar students. It covers Tonics, Dominants, Altered Dominants, Augmented 6ths, Neapolitan bII, and the 6/4 chord. Some of it will be familiar, but this video concerns the early 19th-century mind's view of it all.
Verbal typo: 6'03" - I say B9 Chord - meaning A9! That is, A7 with the note B added.
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...and all those things are in one study by Sor, which I play at the beginning and end.
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This sort of modulation always makes me think of Schubert, who was a cheeky boi
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Yes, I think it also directly correspods to his semantics. His modulating sequences are usually short and the new key shows up suddenly as if somethign that was there always shows up out of nowhere immidiately.
The idea of parallel timeflow, mirror, reflections, 'doppelganger'...
In this song the move is very simple: the root dominat chord of original key just goes down a half-step and it is 6 4 tonic chord of a new key followed by a cadence - and the return to the previous key is just the same turnaround backwards - mirror-like reflection... and it fits the contents of the song: looking at the frozen river which is simaltaneously a flow behind it and stagnation, reflection in the ice and transparence that shows the other side, time that runs and stands still.
And all this even without going into the analysis of what is going on further in the song with key realtions, sitch of melodies between singer and piano and so on... all together it really goes on the level wehre music expresses more complex meanings than once can describe in words.
Auf dem Flusse starts at 20:50
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Thank you! Originally Posted by Jonah
Yeah, those chords before modulation are basically chords of C major with some pre-dominants and they doesn't prepare to key change to B major. But they give a hint that something is going to happen and it works better than straight cut from C to B when I tryed it.
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That was lovely video Rob. Thank you! Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
I actually got little bit inspired about the topic and found this Mozart's piece that has this maybe rare modulation we are talking here, half-step down (Eb to D). It's done really nicely with bit longer manner.
When I listened the piece I found out that it's full of beautiful cazenzas and modulations. It has that Neapolitan chord too that you were talking about in your video.
I think I have to study some music of Mozart. That is something I have never done. Have been more into Bach and Sibelius.
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Mozart had a greater influence on classical-era composers than Bach, who was largely forgotten.
As for the 19th-century guitar, Sor seems have been influenced by Mozart in his (Sor’s) early opus numbers, but by his last compositions Schubert seems to have become the main influence. Contrast that with Giuliani whose first opus numbers are largely indistinguishable from his later. He arrived fully formed in one style, and stuck with it. I don’t get the sense of struggle from him that I get from Sor.
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Not quite! It modulates to Bb major first (dominant key of Eb) Originally Posted by MikkoKarhula
Modulation starts once Leporello enters, F major in first phrase sounds like secondary dominant yet, but on 'piano, piano...' the Bb is already heard as tonic and on 'l'ho trovata' Fa mjor chord is already a dominant in the key of Bb. And then there is a cadence in Bb.
Modulation from Bb to D major sounds like Bb7 => D6 4 (cadence 6 4 in a new key) and followed by cadence in D majorLast edited by Jonah; 08-21-2023 at 03:40 PM.
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