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The forum has only themselves to blame for this video. I take no responsibility whatsoever.
I do think it touches on a couple of topics that have popped up here from time to time
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07-07-2023 08:50 AM
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Altered scale lacking the MM color tone (because the root can't be the color by definition) is an interesting observation. That's why diatonic chords of MM when played as altered chord voicings don't sound like MM but sound like dominant tensions.
But what about when we look at it from the perspective of the tritone? Tritone's minor (of an altered chord) has the MM color-tone (#11). In that case, (with tritone as the root) we do start hearing MM'ish colors (as opposed to just tensions). Wouldn't you say so?
For those who didn't catch what I mean by tritones minor as melodic minor, for example:
G7's tritone is Db.
Db's minor is Ab dorian.
Altering G7 (Ab melodic minor) amounts to changing the tritone's minor from dorian to MM. Then the characteristic note of Ab Melodic Minor 'G' becomes a color tone of Db7#11.Last edited by Tal_175; 07-07-2023 at 12:30 PM.
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I’m not sure if I follow why this changes anything from the perspective of G7. Tritone’s minor is still playing Abm on G7. You are still emphasising the same notes - Abm, assuming the underlying chord is G7 and you aren’t hanging out on the Gb… which gives a clear G7#5b9(#9) tonality. Db on the other hand gives more of a G7b5b9 sound.
Originally Posted by Tal_175
(btw i would regard this way of thinking as quite alien to Barry’s approach. You made the tritone sub and that was it. I never heard him talk in those terms, except to sometimes gleefully point out a major 7 over a dominant.)
The thing that I should have mentioned if I’d thought of it is that altered is most frequently used as a way of generating chromatic voice leading. The other melodic minor chords add a bit of extra colour but the altered dominant introduces a more dramatic alteration to the diatonic harmony. And yes, you can frame that via the tritone sub of course.
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m6dim a half step above root of the dominant captures it all: b5, #5, b9, #9
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Broken? Broken into pentatonic scales!
Over Galt, for example, I like:
* Bb minor pent (Bb Db Eb F Ab)
* Ab minor 6th pent (Ab B Db Eb F)
* Eb major b6 pent (Eb F G Bb Bnat)
The idear is it is refreshing to jump back un forth between more boppy chromatic playing and more open pentatonic playing, so it's useful to have some pents in your back pocket for when you want altered flavours.
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That's right. It doesn't change anything from the G7 perspective. I was just pointing out that one can see (and hear) the same set of notes from the tritone's perspective with a different root movement (Db to C) and melodic minor is back in the picture. The MM color is present in the Db Lydian dominant. I still agree with your observation that G7Alt is not a melodic minor type sound due to requiring a 2 note skip (b9 and #9) in harmonic construction and having the MM color as its root note. The altered dominant - melodic minor connection seems more like a coincidence. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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You got time to play all them notes, bruv? Haha.. maybe? Originally Posted by pcjazz
I mean, it's a different thing in a way. In terms of using the m6-dim scale that could take several videos of it's own. The basic form of the m6-dim used in scale outlines the, well, m6 chord --> 1-2-b3-4-5-b6-6 (and maybe back down again.)
OTOH if you use the m6-dim as a melodic scale it tends to emphasise the notes of the m6 chord.
What does sound very cool is to break up the m6-dim into arpeggios, you then get the Go7/G7 which is cool. You can also start using it in a more harmonically advanced way, maybe using borrowed notes. It's all in there
The point being I suppose, that in the other instances one can pick out a single note and use that on a chord to get the sound, and this simply isn't possible with altered dominants... anyway
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In the second workshop video of Howard Rees, Barry Harris calls tritone's minor as min6dim scale the "perfect altered scale". The applications are shown both in the improvisation and harmony sections of the workshop. But I still prefer the regular altered scale as the basis for line construction because min6dim has both 13 and b13 in the dominant. I don't like the sound of 13 against the b13 (by that I mean b13 is a very likely color tone in altered comping, so 13th in the scale is a bit of an hit and miss situation to me.).
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Hey, that's Christian's "C minor pent flat root" hack... hmm, so he was right, it is a well know thing... Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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When I force the HW Dim over an alt Dom, I don't seem too bugged by the 13th against the b13 in the chord. Maybe I've just become used to it?... Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Just to straight to the E on G7b9. Don’t be timid! Play an E triad.
Tbh I found Jordan’s stuff useful in hearing extensions like this. Barry overlaps with it in places.
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E over G7b9 is a familiar sound. What I don't seem to like being emphasized is E over G7b13 going to Cmin.
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I like it going to Cm. I probably wouldn’t like an Eb next to it tbh, but maybe I’ll have a try. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Tbh i tend not to play with chordal accompaniment that much, and when it happens I sort of find it annoying haha… so … many guitarists and pianists do like to plonk down voicings without listening and I think G7b13 to Cm is just about the most boring way someone could play that change. I’d honestly prefer a natural 5th.
I try not to be that guy when comping… shells and small chords until I hear what’s going on…
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It should be a football chant: Half, Whole, Half, Whole, Whole, Whole, Whole!
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Litterick, that order was what David Baker taught - He called it the diminished-whole tone scale.
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'Altered' is an odd name for a scale, and not very informative. Diminished whole tone is better, and has a nice hint of paradox. Some call it the 'super Locrian'; some people call it Maurice — the Ravel scale. Originally Posted by Moonray
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I don't really understand this. Are you saying if I see a G7alt and play lines from Ab melodic minor that I'm doing it wrong?
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You are doing well.
Colleagues cause confusion and forget about the music.
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A major 3rd on a m7b5 chord or a minor 3rd on a 7th chord, which sound is more functional?
To my ears a m3 is simply a bluesy color on a 7th chord but a ma3 on m7b5 destabilizes the minor quality.
There are both positives and shortcomings to using a 7 letter system to rep for 12 notes.
For me, sound will win over spelling every time.
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A jazz pianist teacher of mine suggested for this melodic minor VII to build the chords in 4ths.
This yields:
C Fb(E) Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
and a similar approach for harmonic major III:
C Fb(E) Bb Eb Ab Db G
While breaking with the pattern of chords built in 3rds, this better matches what my ears decipher from this collection of notes.
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Yes. But only if you do it. Originally Posted by ragman1
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Thats quite interesting, I’ll give that a try. Reminds me a little bit of Jacob Colliers concept of minor. Originally Posted by bako
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I guess I'm not following the discussion.
The way I learned to think about melodic minor:
V7 resolving to I ... use alt. So, G7 to C takes Abmelmin = Galt.
Secondary dominants use 7#11 (fourth mode). So, a D7 in the key of C (maybe heading to G7) takes Amelmin which includes the 3rd of D7 and the #11.
And,then, the magic unlocked (for me) by Mark Levine: all melmin chords are the same chord. Whether they sound like dominants or tonic-type depends on context and what the bassist is doing.
So, for example, that D7#11 is also Aminmaj B7susb9 Cmaj7#5 etc.
They don't all sound the same, even though they all can work, so you have to figure out the ones you like.
Of course, I don't actually do much of this. Rather, I can hear some of the sounds and I use those. I don't worry about scales that are different by one note - I figure that's what your ear is for.
But, OTOH, I'm as interested as anyone else in finding new ways to think about this material.
EDIT: I'm also unclear about the so-called color tone(s). When you play Galt (=Abmelmin) against G7, it seems to me the "color tones" are the altered fifths and ninths so there are four of them. When you play fourth mode Dmelmin against G7, the color tone is C#, because it's the #11 of G7, and it's the only note that isn't in a G13.
OTOH, if you play Dmelmin against Dm, you get D E F G A B C#, or R 9 b3 4 5 6 nat7. I'd call the B and C# color tones and maybe the E. Of those, I can see an argument that the C# is most prominent because it creates the minmaj sound.
If you listen to the other chords in the harmonized Dmelmin scale, the C# looms large in some but not others.
It makes the sound of Fmaj7#5 and G7#11. Not as much for A7b13 (you could argue that the F is an important color tone for that one). Bm7b5 (C# is the 9th, which you don't even include in the vanilla chord -- F is the main note). Then C#alt, with four color tones, to my way of thinking.
The ii chord may be considered Em7b9 which skips the C# and the main color, again, is F. Levine substitutes E7susb9 which is E A B D F.
So, do you include the so-called color tones in your solo lines? My answer is that you can but you don't have to. The audience will hear those notes in the comping. The soloist takes advantage of that, but doesn't have to produce those notes. The solo can sound consonant, or not.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 07-08-2023 at 07:41 PM.
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I like using altered in 2 ways. Take our example of G7. Playing diminished - whole tone starting on G and phrasing it that way. Or phrasing it as Ab melodic minor. The notes are the same, but the effects are different. 2 different tonality sounds. I don't really use harmony built on melodic minor as the foundation.
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In those cases where I actually am thinking about scales, here's how I'm likely to use Dmelmin. More often, I think about chord tones and tonal center.
Dminmaj7
E7susb9 -- I usually think about chord grips like a novice.
It applies to Fmaj7#5, but I'm not likely to think of it that way. Instead, I'm more likely to think of A/F. That turns out to be playing in Fmaj but sort of suspending the #5. Not unusual for it to resolve to Fmaj7.
G7#11. I end up thinking of this as mixolydian with a note changed. They could all be conceptualized similarly, but I don't.
A7b13. Same thing. Mixo and change a note.
Bm7b5. I think, "minor third up" which is Dmelmin.
C#alt. Melmin a half step up. Or, a minor triad with an added 9.
This is not the way I'd suggest doing this to anybody that has a choice.
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the basic thesis is that you can add one note to any given chord to get melodic minor and it is always THE SAME note which is to say the seventh of the related melodic minor. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Without the added 13 (C#) E7sus4b9 is a diatonic C major key voicing for instance. It’s not that the C# is the only colourful tone, it’s that it’s the thing that makes it sound melodic minor and not simply phrygian. If you can sing it reliably on every chord, you can hear melodic minor harmony. It’s really that simple. Which for all the chord in C major/D Dorian is C#.
So I demonstrate this in the video, #11 on 7, 9 on m7b5 etc. To produce a melodic minor tonality you need to make a beeline for it and sub chord structures should contain it (which I didn’t demonstrate) which is the case with things like the aug triad, maj7#5.
if you focus on hearing that note you are going to hear melodic minor harmony. And you can absolutely go one size fits all and do the same sort of stuff because they are all alike.
You can’t do that with altered.
Furthermore the things that work well on melodic minor chords don’t necessarily give the whole sound of the altered scale. For instance Bmaj7#5 on G7 gives B G D# A# or 3 1 b13 #9. It works well enough but doesn’t give all the characteristic tones of the altered scale, most notable the b5.
OTOH things that give the characteristic sound of the altered don’t really work that well on other melodic minor modes
So, treating the altered as another melodic minor is not going to produce ‘bad sounding’ results but it’s not as effective. You need distinct approaches to get all the sounds out of it.
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