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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
each interpretation gives a different avenue to explore.
in Django’s case iirc he really does play a melody using the D harmonic major notes, esp that specific tetrachord A-Bb-C#-D (at least I remember him doing that… it was a while.) it stuck in my head because it’s unusual, because while b6’s have been common in major keys since the 1700s, the aug 2nd leap b6->7 remains unusual in melodies in this context. At least it seems so from the stuff I’ve checked out.
EDIT I think it’s this version
In any case you can find Django up to all sorts of stuff on record…Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-25-2023 at 04:40 PM.
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03-25-2023 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by kris
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 03-25-2023 at 05:21 PM.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Lol
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
The way I have generally seen it is that G13b9 goes with all white keys except lower A to Ab. That leaves 5 notes, one of which is the A you're trying to avoid. The other four are the remaining black keys. Db Eb Gb and Bb. I notice that it's an Ebm7, not that I've ever applied that observation. If you have a b9, the #9 is probably going to work. Two are the neighbors of the fifth. The other is the maj7, which is not a note I plan for against a dominant, although it can certainly work in the right hands.
I do know that 7b9 is related to diminished and I can play different b3 intervals. So, maybe I know that avenue to explore. Knowing that it's harmonic major tells me nothing useful, although that could be due to a knowledge gap.
So, I'm trying to think of a melody. I know the chord tones. I know the background scale (white keys exc Ab). I know the sound of the altered fifths and #9. So I know what will sound easily consonant, uneasily consonant, tense and too-far-out-for-my-level-of-ability.
How do I turn this into more "avenues to explore" while still maintaining a focus on melody?
I probably should have mentioned short attention span.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I thought your clip of what is this thing called love was played on alto. Anyway, your friend's finesse sounds like Stan Getz whatever instrument it was.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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Originally Posted by gcb
Yes, and, among others, Daniel Barenboim, Lennox Berkeley, Elliott Carter, Aaron Copland, John Eliot Gardiner, Philip Glass, Roy Harris, Quincy Jones, Igor Markevitch, Virgil Thomson and George Walker.
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Originally Posted by kris
I'm leaning toward "yes".Last edited by pauln; 03-26-2023 at 07:57 PM.
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Originally Posted by kris
I can’t say a player who works this way doesn’t know theory for sure, but I do know from experience that it’s not necessary to know much if any theory to play this way.
If someone is blasting out loads of complicated scale patterns that suggests a more theoretical or schooled approach to me. There’s definitely a chord scale way to solo which sounds a certain way, for instance. So those players sound ‘theoretical.’Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-26-2023 at 05:02 AM.
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Originally Posted by Litterick
The US syllabus is more influenced by the Germans in general if I’m not mistaken despite the fact that all the Americans seemed to go to study with Boulanger haha. Or perhaps that’s why they went... I think there’s a bit of French influence in the UK though for instance the ABRSM theory syllabus.
Apparently Boulanger was keen on students playing things at the piano, not just writing on paper. So it had a practical element.
this is different approach and tradition AFAIK to Fuxian species counterpoint which is what people usually mean by ‘studying counterpoint’.Last edited by Christian Miller; 03-26-2023 at 05:01 AM.
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Originally Posted by kris
My idea, untested of course, is that if I hear unexpected harmonic movement which isn't all that musical (subjective judgement, of course) and it's played with what sounds like scale running rather than licks or melody, then I'm going to guess theorist.
For intermediate players, maybe even advanced players, I think I'd be right a lot. But, for the top players, who have absorbed and transcended theory, I think I'd be lucky to guess at chance levels.Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 03-26-2023 at 03:50 PM.
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Originally Posted by kris
The player may have copied what he was playing, got it from a friend, worked it out himself, heard it on a recording, anything you like. There's insufficient evidence that anything played was learnt from books or a college, etc. He might know the technical terms for his note-choices but equally he might not. And there are many players that we know very well who have not. We keep talking about them here! By the way, Stan Getz was another one, it's on his Wiki page.
(Now I'll look at what the others have written because I deliberately haven't looked at them yet).
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Huh, not much to see! It's all a bit vague, understandably. Actually, I've just thought that there are certainly some younger players who do sound/look as though they've got some of their moves from a source like a college. You can tell, they have that 'studied' feel about it. Christian said that, I think.
But they tend to be the modern players and we know most of them went to Berklee or studied with x,y,z. With the older guys it's not the same, predictably. It wasn't de rigueur to have gone to Berklee or somewhere else. They learned their stuff on the road or by incessant practicing, and so on. It has quite a different feel, and I'm not sure I don't prefer it. Good jazz doesn't have to be super-technical at all.
By the way, here we go:
'According to Getz, he only had about six months of lessons and never studied music theory or harmony.'
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Gary Burton (whose first touring gig was with Getz - he stayed for a couple of years & ended
up being Getz's tour manager) says Getz would often pause to hear the next chord played
during solos. He may not have been able to name 'em but knew which 'pool of notes' to pick
from when he heard the them. (GB's phrase)
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Originally Posted by kris
'Twas mine own path too
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Nothing mad to contribute, carry on.
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Originally Posted by kris
That’s more useful than being told what scale to put on what chord or something, which is public domain info anyone can access for free.
Education is not about the exchange of info on a syllabus. That’s merely the bit we can measure, the necessary box to tick for accreditation etc. Mentorship has always been really important to jazz, but this is not the same thing as pedagogy. I’m not sure pedagogy has ever been that important in jazz; jazzers have always been very self directed learners and that’s kind of expected actually. Even in Barry’s class the onus was on players to take what they could from the session. It wasn’t like he was spelling everything out in easy steps.
go for a lesson with a big cheese jazz musican and the first thing they’ll ask you is ‘what do you want to know?’ You can’t be passive.
I do think there is something of a worked out syllabus or program at places like Berklee (a friend who attended ranked the teaching to be excellent) but I think it’s a mistake to conclude that this is what makes players. The real players often show up already being able to play to a high level, and college is an opportunity to make connections.
If I was doing it again, I think I’d seek out a mentor early on. That was my biggest error (the other one being over focussing on theory.)
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The modern college values, above all, a student's ability to pay the fees.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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Originally Posted by kris
Tomasz Szukalski - Wikipedia
I didn't mean to imply that the Russians killed him, only that they apparently pursued him very unpleasantly ('Szukalski lost his father's home (occupied by soviet invaders)... the soviet provocations, invigilation and robberies didn't stop... after one such visit Tomasz's driving licence was revoked').
I was just wondering if you knew why they did this to him. It doesn't say he was political. Maybe something to do with his father.
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