View Poll Results: How many tonalities per take is ideal?
- Voters
- 15. You may not vote on this poll
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0-1 / don't care
11 73.33% -
2-3
0 0% -
4-5
3 20.00% -
Yes / 6+
1 6.67%
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Probably want to let the tune inform your choices. Cool that some pros have their individual approach which they use broadly.
My approach would be to stick with what works for the tune. However, I do want to work some stuff and purposely fit it over tunes like shifty pent.
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01-19-2023 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Vihar
Chasing changes at high tempos is a surefire way to sound both robotic and to paint yourself into a corner should you "lose the changes."
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Originally Posted by John A.
As in, "I myself and other folks have thrown plenty of shit down there over the years, but I can only bring up a little bucket at a time."
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I don't particularly like exercises but here's one I used to give people. This is probably easy to solo over:
Em7 - A7 - Dm7 - G7 - CM7
Then see how easily you can do
Em7 - A7b9 - Dm7 - G7alt - CM7
Then go up the cycle into F, Bb, Eb, Ab, and so on. Repeat till it's easy. Stop when bored :-)
(Bearing in mind there's more than one way to do it)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
I was waiting for someone to tell me that in my stupidity I turned my blues scale into a chromatic one after naming the additions I like to include. I think that every soloist is headed in that direction whether they realize it or not. The scales are like training wheels. No one should ride a bike with them on indefinitely.
It would've brought much faster understanding if someone would've said "here's the blues scale but here's why and where you can use these handy extra notes". No, it's just cold patterns on a piece of paper. "This is the blues scale you play it over the I-IV-V" and you are expected to memorize a bunch of patterns and make a rather clunky set of fingerings happen. Then you get to memorize the three note per string versions locking you in further and having little actual usefulness for blues playing because long pinky stretches are much less useful where bending and slurring is concerned.
Also, this is your approach. Have you run it by your instructor? What works for you may seem stupid to someone else. Not everyone learns the same. Keep in mind it's music, it doesn't really matter how you arrive at your chosen goals it only matters that you arrive. It is a great thread to me and caused me to analyze a bit of what I have been doing a little more in depth, so, thank you.
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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Jeff -
I'm not sure I get your point but, if I do, that's why I don't like exercises!
By the way, it might be easy for you but it's not easy for everybody. They seize right up when they see the b9 and the alt and they definitely need to know how to make it sound right. And that's just in C.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Certainly not one preceeded by a ii!
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Em7 - Dbm7 - BbM7 - Dd7 - CM7
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
for using it is that you chromatically repeat a set pattern
shifting the whole pattern chromatically through a series
of chords in the progression - causing the patterns to hit
the altered notes. It is easier to just hear it and then hear
how to find them. So I'm not sure if the repeating pattern
moved chromatically that works very easily on the guitar
transfers as easily to the keyboard; example to play with
here is like the first part of the "B" section of Masquerade.
Ebm7 Ab(9) Dbmaj7 Bb(13) Ebm7 Ab(9) Dbmaj7 - % -
I'm just going to put the notes - think of them as either a
major or minor descending pentatonic scales, as heard.
Ebm7 Db Bb Ab F Eb Db
Ab(9) D B A Gb E D
Dbmaj7 Eb C Bb G F Eb
Bb(13) E Db B Ab Gb E
Then you might do something similar and different like
using a pattern where the top note descends but as a
change from an outside altered sound - not shifty pent.
Ebm7 F Db Bb Gb Eb C
Ab(9) E C A Gb Eb C
Dbmaj7 Eb C Ab F D Bb
In terms of tonalities, what's going on here is that these
patterns are pentatonic (and simple for the guitar), but
complex in that altered notes of the chords get played
(so complex), and because it's altered notes across four
chords and four bars, it becomes an increasingly outside
sound. The challenge playing outside is bringing it back;
it's good to follow it with something nice and predictable.
Part of that predictability in this case here is continuing
the chromatic idea in the opposite direction by using the
starting note of each piece chromatically and letting the
rest of it notes follow the chords more closely, so they
resolve the tension of the altered outside part before it.Last edited by pauln; 01-19-2023 at 08:06 PM.
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I wasn't going to reply here, but a couple things grabbed me.
1st:
Originally Posted by DawgBone
-cheers Dawg
Jimmy,
We ended up with a great thread here ! I think there's some great insight here. I've read it a couple times and I'll read it again.
The title made me cock my head, -what the hell ?- but it's a good read.
-best,
Mike
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Originally Posted by mjo
My instructor was a really good and enthusiastic instructor, now teaching at the university level, but I think he kind of looked down his nose and changed his attitude towards me once he knew that my sole interest was learning the blues, lol. I think like a lot of guys he considered blues below him. TBH that attitude usually shows in their playing if you put them on a straight blues song.
It amazes me how much is possible using just blues, major, and minor pentatonics. A whole lifetime could be spent without ever squeezing every possible lick out of them when you consider slurs and bends and all the added tones and techniques i.e "side slipping" we discussed in this thread. Great thread!
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^ I agree. There's so much you can do and study in blues with only blues scale, major and minor, and maybe a couple of other complementary devices.
Originally Posted by mjo
Last edited by Jimmy Smith; 01-26-2023 at 06:17 AM.
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I did see a humorous quip by a poster some time ago here. Something like 'Playing too many outside sounds can lead to the suggestion that you go off and form your own band' :-)
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Originally Posted by Jimmy Smith
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^ So true.
Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
My instructor was a really good and enthusiastic instructor, now teaching at the university level, but I think he kind of looked down his nose and changed his attitude towards me once he knew that my sole interest was learning the blues, lol. I think like a lot of guys he considered blues below him. TBH that attitude usually shows in their playing if you put them on a straight blues song.
and what’s jazz without blues? Prog rock, that’s what.
It amazes me how much is possible using just blues, major, and minor pentatonics. A whole lifetime could be spent without ever squeezing every possible lick out of them when you consider slurs and bends and all the added tones and techniques i.e "side slipping" we discussed in this thread. Great thread!
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I think it might've been because blues was more popular in the 90's and it seemed a lot of the guys who came up in the 70's were either "over it" or just considered it below them so I think that was where some of his irritation stemmed from. He was over it. Pretty much anyone handy with a guitar can hang on a couple 12 bar tunes but not many with a guitar can or will hang on them all night or take time to delve into some of the alternate, and more interesting forms that are also used in some blues standards.
I do like the Allman Bros and such but don't consider it blues. But no, blues does not need to be minor pent on a 12 bar either. You might be surprised how many otherwise good players cannot stick that straight ahead 12/8 slow blues 12 bar with any conviction, even in TX. Everyone is mostly a blues-rocker now instead of straight ahead blues and that means two chords and a bridge instead of just three chords, lol.
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
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Originally Posted by DawgBone
This could be a tough question, I'm not sure I could answer such a thing. It may be the sentence following that snip is all you mean.
I assume you're not talking drummers, although I was just watching a drum instructional that covered this same thing. .... if it's me, I'm just following the drummer.... is his fault -lol
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Originally Posted by mjo
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