How much does the key center dictate the scale choice?

[ragman1]

Seems like scales, arps, and intervals, like I said. :P

Easily said, but which ??

[ragman1]

I really dig the clip ragman1.

One clip is better than a thousand words. Thanks for taking it seriously.

I certainly need to focus on some basics.

I think that's true. But you actually play well, you have the music in you. If what you were doing was more accurate to the chords it would be exciting listening!

[st.bede]

Thank you ragman1. Your clip contains true beauty. There is a sophisticated but solid down home feel to that clip. In my book, it can not get much better then that. I tend to be too prolix, in all things.

[Bobby Timmons]

Easily said, but which ??

Whatever you want. All good solos conform to using those guidelines, with a very small percent of other devices. And if you use them together creatively and effectively, it always sounds musical. Unlike individually using scales, or arps, or ear.

[ragman1]

Whatever you want. All good solos conform to using those guidelines, with a very small percent of other devices. And if you use them together creatively and effectively, it always sounds musical. Unlike individually using scales, or arps, or ear.

Of course, but I meant on the Bernstein video. It's pretty hard to work out his moves.

[Bobby Timmons]

It's very advanced playing, but I didn't see many measures that weren't scales, arps, and intervals. He used a lot of color notes, there were some chromatic approaches, some arps were played out of order, some successions of notes were random intervals. But to me, almost every bar's main idea could easily be described as a combo of scales, arps, and intervals. Don't you think?

[ragman1]

I know, I know, but I was actually trying to work some of them out. The arp, or scale the arp is derived from, is sometimes ambiguous and hard to spot. When it's not hard to spot and can be identified as 'D7alt', for example, then it's hard to replicate. I tried it and it wasn't very good.

But he does the whole thing at speed, one arp following the other, and makes it sound right. That's the clever bit. The skill is phenomenal.

[Bobby Timmons]

I agree. It's some hardcore stuff. Playing to aspire to. That probably has to be planned (theory-d) out how he'd target all those color tones. And the result is great when used musically.

I'm sure you could do it if you isolated and practiced some contour ideas and some notes ideas.

[ragman1]

Possibly :-)

[ChazFromCali]

^ If you listen, jazz masters use scales.. :P In my view, scales, arps, and intervals are the raw materials of melody.

Oh I know.
Even Wes rips a quick scale off going into his solo on Four on Six, about as scalar as he ever got. @0:38

But it's a rare day when a scale is my default choice for the first thing to play. I'll just about do anything else.

[Jonah]

reading this thread I suddenly thought that many methods to teach music seem to be like methods to teach a blind person to draw and paint... in hope that one day either his mechanical handskills achieve such a level of automatism that he can mimic real painting or that it will bring him to a miracle that he finally can see.

[Bobby Timmons]

Oh I know.
Even Wes rips a quick scale off going into his solo on Four on Six, about as scalar as he ever got. @0:38

But it's a rare day when a scale is my default choice for the first thing to play. I'll just about do anything else.

Trying to come up with stuff from only raw scales is usually pretty unmusical. Everyone can agree that's a big pitfall. The 1 thing which is somewhat musical on its own are chord tone solos. However mix arps with scales and throw some leaps in there and it's pretty much language. Makes no sense why someone like Jonah would be mad at that.

[emanresu]

In my very humble experience alt scale can be atrocious to learn isolated and with vigor. There was even a thread there like "I dont like the alt scale, can I get by without it?".

Yet, when just toying with it, it can be as smooth as a snail sliding on a warm sweet jelly.

[st.bede]

reading this thread I suddenly thought that many methods to teach music seem to be like methods to teach a blind person to draw and paint... in hope that one day either his mechanical handskills achieve such a level of automatism that he can mimic real painting or that it will bring him to a miracle that he finally can see.

That is an interesting metaphor. I do believe you are explaining a certain aspect of the learning process. However you are missing a very central element.

To preface my next statement: I was pretty solid musician 1998ish, with a solid educational background. I then developed carpal tunnel, was not to play guitar seriously for years. It was so bad that at one point, I picked up my guitar and had to think through how to play a minor pentatonic scale.

At one point, I was so frustrated with the carpal tunnel, that I decided to focus all my energy on design and painting.

A few years ago my sister said I should take a glucosamine. (I think that is right but I have to double check the bottle). That changed everything. I could sustain practice, with a week break every now and again. One thing that is important to note is that, I retained my ear skills until my long break from any form of working with music, while I focused on fine art.

Learning music is not like being blind. We get to use our ears. That takes focused training, however we have probably been training our ears from before we even played music. Tapping you foot to the beat, is a rudimentary ear training exercise. I spent hour in college listening to music and waving those stupid conductor patterns in the air. It really helped me to know what beat was connected to what was musically happening. That is a more sophisticated way of taping your foot. Anytime we really focus on music that we are listening to, it should be able to help us “see” what we are learning.

The most important thing is to be able to connect the theory, with the ear, and the technique. I remember when those three area were connected and well developed. At that point, when I learned a new idea, it fit into a network, and I was up and running with it with in a couple of weeks. Before I had the theory, ear, and technique all gelled, it would take six months.

I can feel, where my theory and ear skills are holding me back at the present moment. I know I need to really focus on my ear training. Just like before, it is not the most fun aspect of learning to play music. Endlessly listening to some computer program playing things. Which is better then what I fist did when I was a kid. I would have to record a tape of intervals.

I will say that the very best aspect of being a semi trained musician was how deep I could hear into music. That was also the second most painful aspect of losing the ability to play music. The first most painful area, was losing my ability to enjoy live performances.

(I did a number of years of theory, but only did a year of jazz theory at college. All I remember now is having to write out endless little boxes. I remember the V of V being in the box, but that is all I have. I added this in case anyone has any information where to re-learn those stupid boxes).

[ragman1]

Oh I know.
Even Wes rips a quick scale off going into his solo on Four on Six, about as scalar as he ever got. @0:38

That's not a scale, that's a sliding pentatonic. Slow it down a bit.

[Christian Miller]

reading this thread I suddenly thought that many methods to teach music seem to be like methods to teach a blind person to draw and paint... in hope that one day either his mechanical handskills achieve such a level of automatism that he can mimic real painting or that it will bring him to a miracle that he finally can see.

I’ve often had that thought

[Bobby Timmons]

I’ve often had that thought

With Pebber Brown?

[AaronMColeman]

Thank you everyone. I am still digesting all the information. I have some questions but I want to think more about things first.

I really dig the clip ragman1. I listened to it twice and I am going to listen to it more. A light went off in my head when I listened to it. I have to figure exactly what the means. That will take a little more focus then I have at this moment and also some work at my guitar.

Also thank you very much Mr. Beaumont. I really needed the kind words. I think part of the process of becoming a better musician is comparing yourself against others. To my limited knowledge, this is precisely the wrong thing for a person’s self esteem. I probably spend most of my guitar playing thinking about how bad I am, instead of what my accomplishments are.

I certainly need to focus on some basics.

I'm pretty bad at jazz. I'm uninteresting, I get lost on the fretboard, all my lines feel more like etudes than interesting music, the simple diminished scale gives me fits, I don't like flats (yet), my arpeggios usually include "unintended chromaticism". But, I am getting better on every single point every single week. I know my weaknesses. Like Jackson Browne said "Please don't confront me with my failures, I had not forgotten them".

I try to focus on the facts that I am getting better, and I really enjoy it. One thing that helps me is to front load my practice and playing, meaning I work on the things I struggle the most with up front and end with a confidence booster that is FUN. I will likely never be as good as some of the mediocre players on here...that's fine. I put it in my head that I'm good at some things not at others and I'm getting better. I put the things I'm not good at up front, and end on a high note. Sorta the mentality of "fake it till you make it".

[Christian Miller]

Sounds like a good plan.

The main thing is rhythm. Collect rhythmic phrases

[AllanAllen]

reading this thread I suddenly thought that many methods to teach music seem to be like methods to teach a blind person to draw and paint... in hope that one day either his mechanical handskills achieve such a level of automatism that he can mimic real painting or that it will bring him to a miracle that he finally can see.

Sure, if a deaf student learns scales and arpeggios by pattern repetition and you just tell them to play jazz, they can't. But that's just being absurd.

[Christian Miller]

Just parkin' this here
Received Wisdom (Jeff Goldblum, chord scales, the iReal Book, and Kamasi Washington) | DO THE M@TH

[Bobby Timmons]

Some true bits in that article but still some misleading false premises. True parts are that you have to examine recordings to truly learn authentic jazz, and that only using scales is a really inaccurate way to try to play jazz. False parts are that if the recordings' analysis reveals that their parts don't fit pure scales then they weren't using theoretical devices. Uh no, they had a more advanced grasp on the devices than only trying to run scales. Also the false dichotomy that you can't study both recordings and theory devices. Or pull actual theory devices being used on recordings.

[mr. beaumont]

"It becomes apparent that the notes are connected to the associated scales only by happenstance. It’s folk music first, any technical information about scales exists only as an afterthought. Their notes are blues licks and bebop melodies. Bebop melodies are rarely purely scalar. Indeed, the very sound of bebop requires constant little snakes and chromatic reversals of direction. During the solos, when the phrasing is verging on becoming too intellectual, Fats, Bird, and Bud all play blues licks to keep it in the right place, to keep it jazz. Blues licks do not fit a chord scale."


Soapbox time.

Thinking in scales doesn't mean you have to play straight up and down a scale.

Thinking in chord tones doesn't mean you only play chord tones. Or that you play straight up and down arpeggios.

Mapping systems do not "prescribe" what notes can be played.

Modern jazz internet "education" thrives on creating problems that don't have to be solved.

[Bobby Timmons]

Modern jazz internet "education" thrives on creating problems that don't have to be solved.

There's also the pure purposeful disinformation part. :P

"It becomes apparent that the notes are connected to the associated scales only by happenstance. It’s folk music first, any technical information about scales exists only as an afterthought."

[Tal_175]

Just parkin' this here
Received Wisdom (Jeff Goldblum, chord scales, the iReal Book, and Kamasi Washington) | DO THE M@TH

Sorry but I found this to be an incoherent, at times bordering on jealous rant. He is making a lot of generalizations that sometimes ring very false. I also read the linked follow up article. Here is an excerpt from that article that's an example of the incoherent nature of the articles:

"When people like Louis Armstrong, Lester Young or Charlie Parker improvised, they played in the home key of a song. For “Just Friends,” they would play in G major. They certainly wouldn’t move scales around in order to spell the harmony out on every chord. (Lester Young didn’t like chord charts. At rehearsal or a jam session, he’d just ask what key the song was in.) Compared to Pops or Prez, Bird plays considerably more material to imply passing chords, but on his famous version of “Just Friends,” most of the phrases are still in the home key. "

It doesn't take many transcriptions to refute the claim that "Charlie Parker always played in the home key and he didn't move the scales around in order to outline the harmony". At the very least he consistently outlined the secondary dominants with notes not found in the home key.

Also, so what if Jeff Goldblum's artistic concept is based on chord-scales, who cares? What matters is (apparently) many people like his music. What makes Jazz interesting is that different people pull it in different directions but every now and then it becomes fashionable to bring it back to its roots.