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Can I add a 9 or 11 or 13 to a (for example in the key of C) Db7?
If so, would those extensions be played naturally? (No flats or sharps)
Or is there no such thing since I'd be missing the point of substituting the dominant 7 for another in the first place?
Thanks,
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12-04-2022 02:09 PM
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
If the original chord is G7 in a major cadence, you can play the opposite Db7alt, it won't be a very big tension and will sound more natural.
How many fingers have you got in your hands ?
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
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Gotcha.
Thanks-
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As a general rule of thumb chromatic dominant 7th chords (in the key of C, that would be Db7, Eb7, Gb7, Ab7 and Bb7) are treated as non-resolving dominants and are played with 9ths, #11ths and 13ths. i.e. Db13#11.
While you can break that rule, it’s a good place to start when figuring out extensions.
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
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Oy-Vey.
I kind of know I was opening up a big, deep hole.
I'll try and keep up!
Thanks
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You've gotten good responses about how things usually work.
I'd add this.
It would be a good idea to try all the options and decide what sounds good to you.
Backing tracks and/or a looper are good practice tools.
If nothing else, it will help train your ear to hear the alterations in different harmonic contexts.
Whatever you think is correct, sooner or later you'll be next to a pianist who is loudly playing something else, so it is a good idea to be able to recognize alternatives.
More specifically:
Db7 is a tritone sub for G7 and leads nicely to Cmaj.
If you add an Eb to the Db7 (making it a Db9), that Eb can slide down to a D, to make the next chord a Cmaj9, which will sound fine. There's a lot of half-step-down in that chord change, so it will be smooth sounding.
If you add the 13, that's a Bb. It can pull the ear to B (part of the Cmaj7) or down to A (C6). Not quite as smooth to my ear, but not bad.
If you add the 11, that's a Gb. Are you leaving in the 3rd? If so, it's an odd sounding chord and doesn't pull to Cmaj, to my ear. If you play it as a Db7sus, it still doesn't seem to want to go to C.
If, otoh, you make it a #11, Db7#11 to Cmaj7 sounds a little better. The G is a common tone. But, for a lot of situations, I'd leave out the 11, natural or #11.
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
In C..try Db7#9..common fingering Db F B E Note..the F B E is a G13 fragment-no Root
and you can experiment with a bit of symmetric harmony here also and move the chord in minor thirds Db7#9 E7#9 G7#9 Bb7#9 so you also have the 13th chord fragments of
G13 Bb13 Db13 E13
experiment with resolving to C (maj min dom) with some of these chords as they all have some flavors of G7 and alterations in them
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Let me ask you this-
In CMaj:
If Ab7 is the Tri Sub of the ii,
And A7 is the V/ii (secondary dom),
Then can you use Ab7 and A7 interchangeably?
Or does the A7 only work well as a passing to the ii?
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
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You should read this.
Rhythm Changes - Jazz Theory Notes
And this...
Turnarounds - Jazz Theory Notes
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
I'm mixing apples and oranges.
Strike that previous question.
Sorry about that.Last edited by 2-5Guy; 12-04-2022 at 07:52 PM.
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Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
Ab7 doesn't push to Dmi. Yes, you're correct in saying it's the tritone sub of Dmi but that just means it's an alternative chord for Dmi. It doesn't mean it can be used to resolve to Dmi.
The Ab7 and A7 have different functions in respect to Dmi and to suggest they can be interchangeable is confusing their functions.
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Originally Posted by setemupjoe
Thank you.
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
any chord can work with any other chord..if not directly but within a harmonic progression and voice leading many things are possible
A7 to Cmaj7 .. A7 Dmi7 Fmi7 Cmaj7
extended ....Fmi7 Gmin7 Ab6 Cmaj7 or C6/9 experiment with different Cmaj chord forms
also experiment with scale fragments leading into Cmaj type chords
after playing the Ab6 chord .. play the notes Eb D then the C type chord .. play with different rhythms
just some ideas
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Tritones are technically 7b5 chords, which I don't think have been mentioned (as opposed to 7#11 chords which have the #11 note on top).
In C (as usual) the ii-V-I is Dm7 - G7 - CM7 which becomes Dm7 - Db7 - CM7. But it's how it's played. This is best:
Dm7 - Db7b5 (x4546x) - CM7
The Db7 can be altered but it depends if it works or not. The voice leading must be good. This sort of thing isn't bad:
Dm7 - Db7#9 - CM9
Dm7 - Db7b9 - CM7 (just)
Dm7 - Db9#5 (x4324x) - C69
Nice enough for chord melody but it's probably a bit exotic for background comping.
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Originally Posted by 2-5Guy
A7 is the dominant of the Dm
A7 is a 'secondary dominant' in the key of C
It's only words ....
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I forgot, you can also use the 7#11 with the #11 at the top.
Dm7 - Db9#11 - CM9#11
x5x565 - x4x443 - x3x432
But, you know, I reckon life's complicated enough.
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