Scale outlining "All Of Me"

[Bop Head]

I think you should more and more be able to hear things w/o a backing track, be it Aebersold, BIAB, iReal or your own loop. The scale outlines outline (as the name says) a chord by its chord tones and its "vanilla" passing/neighbour notes. The aim should be to hear the chord changes in your head when you play the scale outlines because the scale outlines outline the changes for you.

BTW according to Richie Hart Berklee scales started as scale outlines for non-chordal instruments in order to learn the changes. The beauty of Barry's scale outline is that you do not need to remember thousands of scales with all those exotic or at least Greek names and that you can work from fingerings that are part of the very basic major and minor scales.

[Bop Head]

Don't say I don't practice what I preach. Here's two versions, exact same 'All Of Me' backing track.

First is with mixo scales as suggested by the OP (I had to fight my muscle memory to do that, it didn't come naturally). Second is using what I think are decent scales for the tune. It's possible various harmonic minors might have sounded better.

Could you please write down what "mixos" you mean in the form of

"On E7 play xxx mixo"

it sounds like you misunderstood something completely. What you are playing has nothing at all to do with the basic scale outlines rintincop posted. Which could actually be interpreted as harmonic minors. Barry's outlines for minor II-Vs (or dominants leading to minor in this case) are simply an elegant way to circumnavigate the augmented second while using the dominant scale fingering a minor third above sharpening one note.

(Although I disagree with him on the Dm7 as I already stated. A Dm7 can be three different things in three different keys: IIm7, IIIm7 or VIm7. I hear it as VIm of F major here and not as a IIm of C.)

[Christian Miller]

Just a brief hint. If you sub Db7 for G7 and play Db mixo you're playing Gb/F# major over G7. If you think that's good... don't :-)

There’s a bit on DVD I where Barry subs a Bmaj7 in for a G7 and then comments on how beautiful the F# is

One of the last things I learned from his was to play C# major into Dm…

It all sounds great

[djg]

There’s a bit on DVD I where Barry subs a Bmaj7 in for a G7 and then comments on how beautiful the F# is

it is wes montgomery's favourite device. havent we been through this like a million times already??

[Christian Miller]

it is wes montgomery's favourite device. havent we been through this like a million times already??

it certainly feels that way

the thing is it contradicts the Holy Scripture

[Christian Miller]

Here's a more traditional one using harmonic minors. It's probably more like how it's supposed to sound.

i think I would tend to use scales that are more in the overall tonality for the basic option, so what you describe as harmonic minors (which in BH scale outlines would be the G7 down to the third of E7 stuff, F E D C B A G# same notes different conception)

C E7b9 A7b9 Dm6 E7b9 Am7 D9 G9

soet of tonality

but it’s really up to the soloist. Best to listen to a few versions and see what the real guys get up to, so often it’s much more interesting than what we think is the best solution from applied theory.

[kris]

It's true about the masters, you can really learn a lot. It's enough to analyze, for example, this.

[ragman1]

YES, Kris! Absolutely. That's the way to do it. Thanks for finding that. Excellent.

[ragman1]

I think you should more and more be able to hear things w/o a backing track

Quite right. I've been doing all that for years. Unfortunately I deleted the recording of my own solo or I could have posted it without the backing. You can certainly hear all the changes. Especially if you know what they are :-).

I suppose I could do another one...

[ragman1]

Could you please write down what "mixos" you mean in the form of

"On E7 play xxx mixo"

No, I've already explained that in detail. It doesn't matter what ones you use, the result's the same.

it sounds like you misunderstood something completely. What you are playing has nothing at all to do with the basic scale outlines rintincop posted.

That was in the second part of his post. I was talking about his statement about bop players and mixo subs in the first part.

Which could actually be interpreted as harmonic minors. Barry's outlines

Exactly. 'Barry's' outlines are harmonic minors. That's why I don't do 'Barry' or any other gurus who dress up standard procedure as their own.

[ragman1]

There’s a bit on DVD I where Barry subs a Bmaj7 in for a G7 and then comments on how beautiful the F# is

One of the last things I learned from his was to play C# major into Dm…

It all sounds great

Not interested. We're discussing All Of Me where most of the dominants last two bars.

C E7b9 A7b9 Dm6 E7b9 Am7 D9 G9

That's what I was playing except I used altered sounds for doms resolving to their i's.

[ragman1]

It's a bit early for me but here it is. Bop can just shut out the backing to see if he can hear the changes...

[ragman1]

And, while I'm at it, here's the backing by itself. It's more or less in concert :-)

You can use it for your musical examples which I know you can't wait to do. It's slowish so we can hear it. No zooming along at 100mph so we can play strange stuff and hope no one notices...

C'mon Bop, you can do it!

[Christian Miller]

Not interested. We're discussing All Of Me where most of the dominants last two bars.



That's what I was playing except I used altered sounds for doms resolving to their i's.

I didn’t listen to it

[ragman1]

You will, Oscar, you will

[pamosmusic]

Again — this place is so weird.

[ragman1]

Again — this place is so weird.

Not to me it's not, Peter. We're talking about how to play the changes of All Of Me, it's very simple. The whole 'Barry Harris' schtick is to elongate the harmonic minor sections (of which there are two, A7 - Dm and E7 - Am) by putting in a passing note. He does the same with other 7-note scales too.

Personally I realised that about 7-note scales long ago and instinctively either added a note, doubled up on a note, made one of the notes a quarter, or simply left an 8th gap in the phrasing, usually at the beginning of the bar. Works a treat, no problem.

So our Barry apparently invented some earth-shattering new theory with strange names like the Barry Harris Sixth Diminished scale. But all it means is he stuck in a passing note in a major scale by flattening the 6th, like C B A Ab G F E D C. And, yes, I know what happens when that scale is harmonised: 6-dim-6-dim, etc.

In any case, you don't need to use harmonic minors. Also, you can add in any passing note, it doesn't have to be the 6th.

I know, I'm not being very nice about it and it will undoubtedly upset his disciples. Too bad, I'm afraid, but the facts are the facts.

[AllanAllen]

I tried to hit some of the Mixo stuff.

Dropbox - AOM for Ragman.m4a - Simplify your life

[ragman1]

Hey, good man! Thanks, Allan. Well, I have to say there were no great clashes. Can you say what subs you were using over what?

I liked the little chromatic touch at the end too. Creative :-)

[kris]

Again — this place is so weird.

This is true...

[A. Kingstone]

Schtick? Show some respect.

Harris never claimed to 'make it up' he analysed and codified and passed it on.

Don't use it - but don't be angry that some of us do.

[pamosmusic]

Not to me it's not, Peter. We're talking about how to play the changes of All Of Me, it's very simple. The whole 'Barry Harris' schtick is to elongate the harmonic minor sections (of which there are two, A7 - Dm and E7 - Am) by putting in a passing note. He does the same with other 7-note scales too.

Personally I realised that about 7-note scales long ago and instinctively either added a note, doubled up on a note, made one of the notes a quarter, or simply left an 8th gap in the phrasing, usually at the beginning of the bar. Works a treat, no problem.

So our Barry apparently invented some earth-shattering new theory with strange names like the Barry Harris Sixth Diminished scale. But all it means is he stuck in a passing note in a major scale by flattening the 6th, like C B A Ab G F E D C. And, yes, I know what happens when that scale is harmonised: 6-dim-6-dim, etc.

In any case, you don't need to use harmonic minors. Also, you can add in any passing note, it doesn't have to be the 6th.

I know, I'm not being very nice about it and it will undoubtedly upset his disciples. Too bad, I'm afraid, but the facts are the facts.

Im not talking about the discussion, or even the argument. I’m talking about the “cage match” direction these things always tend to go.

Also … to be really blunt. You say the facts are the facts. But there are no facts in music theory. If it sounds good, it sounds good. A good player with good vocabulary can make just about anything sound good. The theory is an ex post facto way to categorize it and find it again later. So when someone plays something and says “see it sounds bad!” It doesn’t tell me that the theory doesn’t work, it tells me that the player hasn’t spent enough time with the theory to make it work.

EDIT … and weird as I find all this, my video is currently uploading. I do appreciate your patience in this matter.

[AllanAllen]

Hey, good man! Thanks, Allan. Well, I have to say there were no great clashes. Can you say what subs you were using over what?

I liked the little chromatic touch at the end too. Creative :-)

I specifically did the G7 down to G# at one point, but that was all I tried for. I'm not educated enough to have this argument with you, I don't even know if I agree or disagree, but I had my guitar out...

[pamosmusic]

Again … I find this weird … but also I do think playing guitar is fun.

I also got this Epiphone Dot literal hours ago and it needed a little test drive.

CAVEAT — any idea will sound obnoxious when you use it over and over again, which I did. Also I used the Gb/F# as many times as possible, I think probably every single time the G7 came around.

EDIT: I like the video, so I edited out the introduction to make it comprehensible to people not involved in this rambling thread.

[ragman1]

I give up :-)