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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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01-24-2022 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Or maybe downgrades
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Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
I don’t think a lot of learners realise how standard a lot of standards are… so to speak. We generally come from like blues rock or metal and our brains literally explode at the mildest change of mode, so we don’t have a clue about songbook harmony. Pianists have been pressed into service accompanying singers they fancy from early adolescence so they have more exposure to this stuff than us failed rock star wannabes.
So the best way to learn how jazz standards harmony is to learn hundreds of jazz standards like that (tin pan alley things not Wayne). You can get books about it of course, but I’m not sure if it helps. If you want to be good at playing jazz standards you are going to have to do this work at some point. So I go for immersion.
The way I do it is point out common patterns in tunes and say ‘put a pin in that’ and give it some sort of name. But learning the tune teaches you how this shit sounds and that’s more valuable. I have to say in this case I just think ‘theory schmeory, learn more songs’
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by Ukena
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... or is the second chord really an F#9? hmmm....
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
end of the day that’s the sound, parallel tritone. Certainly not a conventional resolution V7-I resolution in classical terms.
But yeah, Charlie Christian would play E7 Am like that, Bm6 Am6.
This is the interesting ambiguity about m6 chords they also get used to stand in dominants (and half diminished) at least in jazz. And then ‘melodic minors’, important minor or whatever you call it etc etc
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Originally Posted by Ukena
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I also hear it everywhere in solos by Prez's disciple, Charlie Christian. On a related note, the melody of the 'A' section in Lionel Hampton's Till Tom Special (as recorded by Hamp with Benny Goodman and CC) is made up entirely from an Fm6:
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Oiks – you got me, Lobo. I only type, I never play. It is so embarrassing to be called out on the internet! /snark
I was merely mentioning that I was talking about a different key than you were. But I realize that this is your favorite challenge, so have at it. I won't take it personally.
Christian: I was kidding.
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Originally Posted by Lobomov
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Apparently, there's no way to block the entire Theory subforum. <g>
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
My take on it is like any other education. You go to school, you learn stuff, you choose what to forget and what not, and then you do whatever you want and make something out of your life. Music is no different. I’m self-taught and have been playing by ear all my life. Now I want to understand more of it. Christian’s ‘pin method’ is how I go about learning tunes. But I don’t need a lot of theory for that purpose. However I might need a bit more to be able to do this:
Edit: can’t post an Insta vid here, hoped to post Rick Beato’s Connecting the sounds of minor - learning your arpeggios quick lesson from Jan 21st.
I’d like to be able to play like that because a) it’s really beautiful and it moves me; b) because technically my hands can easily do this but it’s all about note choice and understanding what works when and why.
(Oh, and theory is fun. Just like talking gear is fun.)
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Originally Posted by Ukena
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Regarding what we need to learn in order to play jazz:
I appreciate the video by Tim Lerch about whether one needs to learn modes and scales, where he says (in his candidly charming way) at 3:08:
"Of course, we always hear that 'Wes Montgomery didn't blah blah blah' and 'Django Reinhart didn't blah...' – well, guess what. You're on the internet looking at a video about how to improvise, and that means you aren't going to be able to do what Wes Montgomery did or what Django Reinhardt did. It means you need some help. And I don't blame you for that – we all need help!"
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I find it very easy to make up music ideas by combining rhythm ideas and harmonic sets of notes. Usually I will evaluate the result with my ear and ask myself if it was satisfactory for me. If it wasn't, I ask myself why not and that's the end of it. I can also use theory to hear the ideas other players use that I like. Theory is only helpful used in these ways. The only way theory wouldn't be helpful is if it were used to the exclusion of any attempt to apply it musically or appraise the end result musically.
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Originally Posted by Ukena
I always find it funny that people cite bonafide musical geniuses as their reason as to why they "don't need to learn ____________."
I think I'm going to start using people who suck as a basis for why I SHOULD learn something.
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In a minor II V I context, I believe the harmonized scale (harmonic, or melodic) places a min6/minM7 chord as the I chord. However, this is an inconvenience as it doesn't resolve in a way that many players hear it. So, the m6 get's substituted for a m7. I think Django purists use the m6 more, and you do hear that harmonic minor being used more than in US jazz.
The other contexts you hear it used are with a descending line eg Dm, DmM7, Dm7, Dm6, or as a dominant 9 with the 5th in the root.
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Originally Posted by Victor Saumarez
Barry Harris was famous for teaching 6th chords as the basis of his harmonic approach (which is relatively old school.)
Harmonic minor is used quite a lot in bop. And I hear Dorian in gypsy jazz and 30s swing (as well as melodic) OTOH….
Anyway for modern style players all these options are available, I think players still often prefer to avoid the b7 on a minor chord, or understand the difference in the tonalities.
When I had a lesson with Peter Bernstein he told me off for using a m7 as a I chord … should be minor, m6 or m(maj7) (or m6/9) unless you are going for a specifically modal minor sound. I think the point is to know the difference. Melodic minor also offers a lot of possibilities for interesting sounds.
Historical aspects aside m7 is my least favourite chord for a minor I chord; to me it always sounds like the major triad - F on D for instance, so it waters down the minor sound. It sounds sort of chilled out. It doesn’t really sound like minor anymore.
That might be the effect you want but even if I do want a b7 in the minor chord the m7 is not my first choice; I prefer m9 or even m11 as a voicing. (Mike Moreno referred to m7 disparagingly as an ‘R&B chord not a jazz chord’ lol.)
If a m6 is too old school but you want that quite dark dissonant melodic minor/Dorian type sound I think a m6/9 is a good choice. I really like madd9 as a basic minor tonality, it leaves the nature of what minor scale you want to use over it very open. It can actually sound best to avoid the 6th and 7th altogether in minor lines and harmony, if you want to have that true, sad minor.
m(maj7) sounds are quite intense, more dissonant and ‘exotic.’
(Another reason why you might want to not use a m7 is on the IV chord; quite often the melody is on 6 or 7.)
Minors are complicated beasts. It’s good to be discerning…Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-25-2022 at 07:10 PM.
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I haven't used madd9 much. I like that sound and idea. Sounds elegant and jazzy without being overly intense and signifies a i chord.
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There are four sounds under discussion here.
R 2 b3 4 5 are common to all.
6 b7, dorian minor
6 nat7, melodic minor
b6 b7, natural minor
b6 nat 7, harmonic minor.
Now you're on the bandstand. You can hear, pretty well, one hopes, what the comping instrument is playing, although you can phrase with it or against it. You know the flow of the harmony. You are trying to create melody.
So, to my way of thinking, you pick the notes by ear.
There are things of historical and theoretical interest that seem to help some players, but to my mind, it's learning the sounds and playing them with great time feel and the vocabulary you want. There's a vocabulary that sounds like "classic jazz guitar" to me, and I love it when I hear it, but not everybody has to use it.
I approach theory discussions with trepidation. I've definitely gotten some things from theoretical foundations into my playing, but this doesn't seem to need to be one of them. Pick a 6. Pick a 7. If you don't like the result, pick different ones.
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Either playing solo where I provide all the harmony, or playing with a combo, I know the sounds and have command of all the minor chords or scales in my repertoire. The theory of it and the sound of it aren't at odds in my head or playing, they're the same thing.
Lesson #91: Days Of Wine And Roses as played by...
Today, 06:41 AM in The Songs