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Originally Posted by Lobomov
Which puts my finger on the thing I find difficult about a lot of contemporary/post modal jazz writing; it makes it hard to play these tunes in a creative, open way like standards.
So playing these compositions can become more like doing a cover rather than playing your own interpretation of a song where you can put your spin on it whether subtly or radically. It kind of kills that aspect of the jazz. You’d be better off with top40 stuff. So the creativity becomes more about the writing of complex original music, which puts it more in a prog rock type space…
Not true of all composers, but I think it’s emergent from the chord symbol concept which is actually pretty recent (and limited) and the centrality it now has in the way people teach improvisation. You’d be forgiven for thinking jazz is the realisation of chord symbols on a chart.
People play standards like that too now.
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01-22-2022 12:27 PM
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I’m learning a lot here . Thanks, all!
But sure that begs the question, why do we always notate the flat 7 as a just "7", while the major 7 gets weird stuff like Cmaj7 CM7 or a C-triangle?
This is in fact one of the reasons I asked the question. I’ve got Vai’s book here and Fogg’s Jazz Guitar Handbook and both mention that there’s this convention that flat 7 is notated as 7 unless otherwise specified. That’s good enough for me. Both works fail to mention a similar statement about m6.
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Don’t forget jazz chord symbols are really just a convenient shorthand convention to indicate commonly-used chords, using the simplest way possible. Since minor 6th chords are almost always played with a major 6th in the chord, there is no need to specify anything else. You shouldn’t try to read too much into chord symbols.
Where someone really wants a flat 6 in the chord (e.g. Pat Metheny/ECM type tune?), they would be expected to put some explicit indication in the chord symbol, such as b6. An example of this is Iris, by Wayne Shorter:
Last edited by grahambop; 01-22-2022 at 04:36 PM.
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
Why Lead Sheets? | Berklee
You will see other chord symbol styles but there’s no good reason not to use Berklee. Every working jazz musician understands this and the main purpose of notation is to be understood.
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
If you find that it helps to think about a scale, think C Dorian. C D Eb F G A Bb.
And, apparently, not every common chord is built in thirds.
Or, if you're willing to ignore the chorus of protests that the following might stir up, think of minor as 1 2 b3 4 5 (b6 or 6) (b7 or 7). That's four possible minor scales, each one of which has a common name. For playing jazz, it's very helpful to know the sound of each. For talking about jazz it's helpful to know the names.
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
lets see..Ami6 1 b3 5 6 A C E F#
context/function vs theory vs diatonic harmony
as others have said in a diatonic setting the chord does not exist in the major scale...but as an dorian chord with the sixth degree replacing the seventh of the dorian mode it does
in a G major context it could be considered a D9/A chord (no root)
and it could also be F#m7b5 or Ab7#5b9 (no root) now both these can be subs for the V7 chord in G
for me defining the function of a mi6 chord is where "it could be" comes in..my ear wants it to move some where or if you add a 9 to it as mi6/9 it has a home nice ending chord on Blue in Green ..but by itself it needs direction..thus context..and the pick a name/function of the chord
let you ear be the guide...when you see it in sheet music..see how it functions..what chord if before and after it..it will help define the function..many chord names are not correct in alot of sheet music
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Man, it never occurred to me to come up with an explanation. I was just like, that’s what it’s called. I understood the minor6 chord to be an odd name cos you’d expect to have, well a minor 6th in. But once I knew what everyone meant by one I quickly moved on.
Later I found that m6 chords were very common in Charlie Christian and Django, and and the basic minor key tonality of jazz was more of a melodic minor or Dorian type of thing than Aeolian, but all the minors get mixed up anyway because those guys play melodic lines not scale patterns.
You need to know
- what’s in it
- what people call it
- most important; what it sounds like and how to play it
Theoretical justification is a time sink.Last edited by Christian Miller; 01-22-2022 at 05:51 PM.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
its not just the chord name..but how it is voiced..in this case I would want the sheet music
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Wow, this has really exploded. I was classically trained and don't really know very much about jazz theory, but this seems like a simple question to me. I may not be even answering the question but here is how I see it. There are three minor scales: natural, harmonic, and melodic and they are all derived from the relative major scale (with adjustments). So if you are in the key of Am and using the natural minor scale (A B C D E F G A), then you can't get an Am6. Same with the harmonic minor (A B C D E F G# A ). No F#. The melodic minor scale contains the F# you need.
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There’s is literally no situation where you can’t find a way to get a m7b6/#5 chord in
uses of Dm7b6/Dm7#5
x 5 8 5 6 x
sub for the following
Bbmaj7 (Bbadd9)
Gm7 (Gm11 no root)
Dm7b5 (Dm7b6)
D7alt (D7#9b13 (no 3rd))
E7alt (E7b9b13 (no root))
Ab7 (Ab13#11 (no root, no 7))
Dm7 G7 Cmaj7 you say?
I say
Am7b6 Gm7b6 Em7b6
or power move
Am7b6 Fm7b6 Em7b6
Smooooooth. Now I suppose I’ll have to do that with inversions. Shit.
I’ll have to learn to play Stella with just this grip
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In modern music the melodic minor scale is used like the other two minor scales. That is, we don’t use the descending form as part of the scale. Some books like to call this the Jazz melodic minor to differentiate it.
Natural minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7 8
Harmonic minor
1 2 b3 4 5 b6 7 8
Melodic minor
1 2 b3 4 5 6 7 8
The major 6th is used in the melodic minor scale and is where we most often pull the mi6 chord from. Like the 6th chord it is used as an alternative to the ma7th chord.
Cma7 and C6 are often thought as being interchangeable in terms of function. C6 would be preferable in situations where the ma7 would clash with the tonic note in the melody.
The same reasoning can be made in minor. Cmi(ma7) has a real dissonance and is often not appropriate as a tonic chord in a minor key. Cmi6 is used as a more consonant version. Remember in a minor key we can liberally borrow from all the minor variations to build the best melody/harmony.
To the point of Cmi#6, this would be an incorrect spelling of the chord. It’s a Cmi triad (1, b3, 5) with a major 6 which is numbered as a 6. As the numbering system for the scales above shows, if you want the b6 note you would denote that in the chord. i.e. Cmi(b6)
The minor 6th interval is notated as a b6, the major 6th interval is denoted as a 6. Therefore a #6 would be referencing an augmented 6th which is the enharmonic equivalent of the b7.Last edited by setemupjoe; 01-22-2022 at 08:24 PM.
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
My take on the issue with 7th chords is that classical theory named dominant 7th chords pre 20th century with just a 7. eg C7 is a C major triad with a b7 added.
In the early 20th century chord names became more common for chords with 7th, 9ths, 11ths etc. When naming tonic 7th chords they couldn’t just call them 7th chords because that name was already being used. Therefore they reverted to the 7ths full interval name, major 7, to differentiate it from the chord name already being used for the dominant chord.
Hence Cma7 (1, 3, 5, 7) and C7 (1, 3, 5, b7)
Yes, it definitely looks like a work around.
6th chords however follow a more logical rule. A chord with a major 6 interval uses the number 6. A chord with a minor 6 interval uses the b6 symbol. This fits nicely with the current naming conventions with intervals.
Unison = 1
Minor 2 = b2
Major 2 = 2
Minor 3 = b3
Major 3 = 3
Perf 4 = 4
Dim 5 = b5
Per 5 = 5
Minor 6 = b6
Major 6 = 6
Minor 7 = b7
Major 7 = 7
Perf 8 = 8
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I see m7#5 more often than I see m7b6.
Common voicing is x5856x D Bb C F. Dm7#5 is what I usually see it called (noting that I play a lot of Brazilian tunes). Well, that is, if the bassist plays D as a root.
If the bassist plays one of the other notes it could be (depending on context) C9sus, Bbadd9, Fsus6 (I guess, I've never seen it). I won't go through all the others, but they might work too. For one example, if the bassist plays an Eb, the notes become nat7, 5 6 9, which is Ebmaj6/9, a useful chord, although maybe not in this inversion so much. I'll leave G root as the next exercise for the reader.
It's easiest to use as a major type chord in Bb by making it x58565. Bb root (bass) 3 R 9 5 nat7. Bbmaj9. The m7#5 usage doesn't seem to occur much in Great American Songbook tunes, but you hear it in Brazilian jazz fairly often.
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The difference between mi7#5 and Mi7b6 is the #5 is replacing the perfect 5th but the b6 is acting as a grind against the perfect 5th. I think many people thinking mi7#5 may actually be using both the 5th and the #5 (or b6). X58565 is an example of this.
The bottom line is functionally these chords are most often referencing a first inversion major 9th chord so if I see either of these chord names that’s what I’m thinking of.
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Doc w and setemupjoe gave the answer that I was sort of hoping for when I asked the question. As for the rest, this is a treasure trove that’ll keep me busy for a while. I’ll be re-reading this many times, guitar in hand.
To briefly summarize the main points of the answers as I saw them fly by:
Accept it and move on:
-history/convention
-notation in jazz oriented towards working musicians’ perspective
-a b6 in a m6 chord isn’t used much (except in Brazilian jazz) and notation needs to be brief & simple
Sound
-a 6 in m6 sounds nicer to most folks than a b6
-context is everything, i.e. bass notes
-there are different ways to interpret the chord (in this case for example first inversion maj9)
Theory
-minor harmony in jazz is mostly based on ascending melodic minor, which has the 6 in it, which makes the chord name m6 consistent with that scale
Other
-mi7#5 isn’t the same as mi7b6 (#5 vs P5 + b6)
-lots of mileage in x5856x
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Originally Posted by Oscar67
It could be seen as an inversion of the 7th degree chord in the major scale. In C that would be Bm7b5, which contains the same notes as Dm6. But I doubt that is the derived use of the m6 chord/sound.
We're familiar with the m/M7 chord (which IS produced by harmonising the melodic minor scale) which is the minor triad extended to the major 7 note. The m6 is also the minor triad but with an added major 6 note. It's this 'added' idea that I think is the clue to it. Only the triad is minor, the major 6 note is added to it.
But why? I think that's probably a wrong question. It sounds good and that's good enough.
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Why talk about it so much ...?
You have to educate your ears and play nicely.
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Originally Posted by kris
Also, I wouldn't mind knowing myself, except I don't think there is an 100% clear answer.
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I am a practical musician.
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So am I, but it doesn't mean theory has no place.
Without the theory we wouldn't have the music, would we? I don't do theory for fun, I use it to inform playing the music. Anyway, didn't you go to music college? You must have done some theory too, it was inevitable.
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You can do that forever.
I was in a music school and had a music theory - ear training, music history, harmony classes, compulsory piano classes, singing in a choir, etc.
Now I practice and develop my musical and practical workshop.
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I'm just saying I have no prejudice about theory, that's all. I don't put theory above playing but, as I see it, the two go together. If they're separated, playing here, theory somewhere else, then I think it's a wrong approach.
(I'm just listening you do a very good solo on Autumn Leaves with the New World Strings Trio )
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Thanks.
ooo my solo-it was 11 year ago.
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Yes :-)
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