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I usually play by ear and noodle until the "right" notes start to take over.. I know harm minor scale pretty well but
it never ever has popped up. Mel.min always. Harm.. hm. even when really trying, it just sounds kinda wrong.
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12-09-2021 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I suggest you watch John Scofield's video 'On Improvisation'/1983/.
There is the essence itself in 1 hour.
Also a lot about minor mel modes and chords.
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Another thing that would be more sensible is if they started the diatonic modes from Lydian and the melodic minor modes from Lydian Augmented, George Russel style OR have modes from Dorian and Melodic Minor ala Allan Holdsworth.
That way you can make a direct comparison between scales which aids learning and application a little bit (though not completely.)
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
He had very advanced thinking on minor scales.
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Originally Posted by kris
As you get deeper into it it may well require a more complex understanding, but for actually knowing what you need to know to get started that gives you a lot of it.
OTOH building arpeggios from the root is also a very good idea - 7, 9, 11, 13; do the basic chord colours and the common ‘melodic minor’ ones.
The Tristano school had a nice way of managing these extended arpeggios; similar to the sort of thing I described.
take a dom 7 arp 1 3 5 b7
Now take a m(maj7) arpeggio - 1 b3 5 7
Add the second to the first on its 5, b7 and b9; so for instance
G7 + Dm(maj7) = G B D F A C# = G9#11
G7 + Fm(maj7) = G B D F Ab C E = G13b9 (natural 11)
G7 + Ab(maj7) = G B D F Ab B Eb G = G7b9b13
And then these upper structures could be expanded into melodic minor scales (there’s a bit more to it); also the m(maj)7 sound incorporates the aug triad
The second structure would be considered a G7sus4b9 choice (‘G Dorian b9’) now I suppose; very common on dominants throughout the bop and swing eras, as well as our friend from the intro of A train.
This theory was AFIAK developed in the 40s (!) so Strayhorn would have loomed large as well as bop.
More modern sounds lean more on major and minor triads in the upper structure; things that ‘tonicise’ the US to use Jordan’s language. E/D7, Eb/G7 that type of thing.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Yesterday I tried to analyze H. Hancock's chords...terribly complicated matter.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
If you see the tones of the Eb7 scale ( namely Db and Ab ) while the chart says Cm do you believe that the soloist is playing a b9 , b13 something or other?
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
So, in this approach, it proceeds (at least in my mind) as follows. You know the chord tones. G B C# F. You know there are some consonant extensions. A and E. You know you're going to be careful about F# since it's a dominant chord. C is the note you raised, so you're probably going to avoid it. That's 8 notes accounted for. The rest are the altered 9ths and the b13. Those are the less consonant extensions.
So, you have a pool of notes and you make melody using them.
In the practice room, you just try different combinations of chord tones and the extensions.
I also think there's real value in thinking about a set of substitute changes while you're playing over the changes the rhythm section is actually using. So, it helps to know substitutions that work. When something catches my ear and I figure it out, that's often what's happening with the line having only a note or two outside the original harmony.
Usual caveat: I write about the way I do it. I'm well aware that much better players do it differently and that mine seems to be minority view. If I knew how they do it, I might change.
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In improvisation, not only is chord analysis important, but also phrasing or creating new melodic lines. Remember that it is all connected ... and feel.
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Is this jazz?
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Originally Posted by Litterick
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Those are highly dissonant notes against Cm, so I would expect that chord to be travelling somewhere.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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one bar before Fm can be C7 and you can play Db and Ab.
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Originally Posted by kris
An easy move is to go from playing C Melodic Minor over Cm to C Altered (= Db MM) over C7. Don't forget to resolve.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
If you think that the notes of Eb7 will sound good over Cm, that's an artistic choice.
But, if you find it helpful to remember some words so that you can find the sound again ...
Do you think of it as Eb mixo?. C phrygian?
Or Just an Eb7 scale (same notes) that you're going to overlay on.
I find it easiest to think about chord names and overlay strategies. So, if I liked the sound of Eb7 over Cm, I'd remember that I can get it by overlaying the 7th chord with the root being the b3 of the minor chord. That would probably get me on the chord tones of Eb7. Since it's an arp, it can have more space between the notes than running a scale.
Upon reflection, if I thought C phrygian, I'd be more likely to think about all 7 notes and not give any emphasis to the Eb G Bb Db. I learned chord tones first and I know them a little better, so it's path of least resistance. If I was starting from scratch I guess I'd give at least lip service to doing both.
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Originally Posted by kris
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Why are you inventing a "rule" I can use a seventh chord on the b3 of a minor chord?
How many 'silly-lydian flat 9' scales can you memorize?
The simple fact is that the movement is G m7b5 to C7 going to Fm and that G m7b5 is Eb9 (no root ) and that has the tones Eb7 INSIDE.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
For the Gm7b5 to C7 to Fm, I know all the chord tones in those chords and I know the tonal center. I wouldn't bother to think Eb7 because I already know the notes in Gm7b5.
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When looking at a chord sequence, in this instance Cm7 Fm7, we can choose to emphasize melodic notes that the chords share or differences between them. C Db Eb F G Ab Bb is a darker m7 note collection but it anticipates likely things to come from an F natural minor collection.
Abma7 Bbm7 Cm7 Dbma7 Eb7 Fm7 Gm7b5
Cm7 Dbma7 Eb7 Fm7 Gm7b5 Abma7 Bbm7
Blue Bossa on the other hand, same 2 chords:
Cm7 ...................Fm7
G F Eb D C Bb | Ab G F
Ebma7 Fm7 Gm7 Abma7 Bb7 Cm7 Dm7b5
Cm7 Dm7b5 Ebma7 Fm7 Gm7 Abma7 Bb7
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
or
Cm7 Gb7#11I Fm7
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
I’m not thinking about flat this or sharp this over the chord I’ve just left.
I’d play Eb7 into C7b9 or Gb7 most times; that’s like ii v I stuff. It could be C altered or Db minor or whatever. Or a diminished scale. or anything really
The important thing is to hear forward into the changes, hearing what’s coming round the pike and making your musical plans, not vertically and reactively all the time. That’s one major thing that makes players sound like they know what they are doing.
I think jazz manuals give the impression that it’s all about the vertical stuff. Barry had a good exercise for this.
You can use the standard chord scales for this application.
But in terms of unity of scale and chord, it’s like I’m adding in a ii V I or V I etc and expressing that as a line. When on a static Cm I might rock backwards and forwards between Cm and G7b9 or something.
if I see something on a chart like a Im —-> IVm I’ll have my designs and ideas. I’m absolutely not operating chord by chord, note by note, that’s for the practice room. I want to have a sense of the form, flow and maybe some larger scale harmony stuff (tritone subs, A section subs etc) on the gig, and not be micromanaging individual note choices.
If I see something less familiar I’ll probably play more vertically, but it can suit for those sorts of non functional situations. I’ve seen most if not all of the standard stuff because I know some tunes. You also get better at mentally pruning the surface complexity in a big band chart, say, and recognising the essence of a turnaround, or ii V, or blues, or whatever it is.
If that answers your question
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You can also use the so-called outside playing.
in.ex.on Cm7 you create tensions and solve on Fm7.
Look at Mccoy Tyner pentatonic stuff.
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Originally Posted by kris
Usually when people talk about it it’s in the context of a vamp, but in principle it’s the same thing as a turnaround. And any turnaround can become a vamp and vice versa. It’s decoration and storytelling; you can’t keep a story going without some conflict, reversal and surprises.
the difference between outside and chord subs where the chord scale can’t work out how it relates vertically to the chord symbols with their theory, so they say ‘it’s outside’. I don’t think the term has that much utility… Is pops ‘outside’ when he plays #ivo7 on IVm6 going to I?
I think real outside playing is stretching at the limits of this venerable process, seeing what you can get away with. This is possible on a long vamp like Passion Dance etc. Another way of looking at it is that you are writing changes where there are none. Otoh you can strip the changes out of something like rhythm changes.
(To their credit Nettles and Graf point out that chord scale relationships aren’t always applicable.)
So a lot changes playing involves outside playing, just look at Django, Parker, Prez etc etc. Steve Coleman’s phrase ‘invisible pathways’ is a nice one.
Favorite Jazz guitarist book
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