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  1. #101

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    You are correct, sir. Sid Margolis...
    Sid was my first teacher. I studied with him for several years. Then for reasons I can't quite recall (but may have involved hearing Carl and Jack Wilkins jam) I switched to Carl.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    I never understood how Chuck did it.

    I remember part of a chord melody that came to me, iirc, from Chuck via Carl.

    It was Fly Me To The Moon (aka In Other Words). First chord is Am7 with a C in the soprano. Next chord is Aminmaj9 (second chord, Stairway to Heaven) and the next two are Am7 xx5555 and Am7 x7758x. Next is Dm7 etc.

    So, to take a simple case, what did he do for the first two chords? Am7 to Aminmaj9. If you don't include the G# over the second one, it's going to sound like you're playing Am7 (you can play something else, but then it won't be the first two chords of your chord melody). It lasts a eighth note or maybe a quarter, depending on how you phrase it, at medium swing tempo. You don't have time to play very many notes over the Aminmaj7. So, is that what Chuck did? Seems like boxing himself in pretty tightly, given that he had a new chord for every melody note. You can get stuck, I imagine, with a guide tone line and elaboration. "Stuck" is probably a poor choice of words. He sounded awesome. I'd guess that he made melody and in doing so made an effort to outline his reharm.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 09-11-2021 at 10:25 PM.

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont View Post
    Makes sense to me...ive said for a long time, the goal is to get to the point where you can nail evdry single change in a tune...

    And then don't ever do that.
    That's it in a nutshell. Jim Hall once said something similar, referring to certain younger players who had impressive technique. He wished he had their chops so that he could then refrain from showing them off.

  5. #104

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    Quote Originally Posted by joelf View Post
    This will refer to solo playing exclusively:

    I just picked up a guitar to finally play, after watching umpteen interviews w/various cats.

    Had Body & Soul in mind. Just coming off listening to Chris Anderson, so a certain rhythmic looseness and dynamic range was in mind, and I decided too to use only the shell, a suggestion, of the tune until the end. I imagined myself playing a set at Mezzrow, so it was a performance in my head and in real time.

    That was my only preparation, and I let it rip for however long, in & out of time and rubato---time for the soloing section, cadenza at the end, as is my usual wont, especially on a ballad.

    Then A Smoooth One popped into my head, time to swing lightheartedly. I never plan a set beyond tunes I want to try my wings on, or feel I have something I especially want to say on something that evening. I may start tapping the guitar top or singing---trading or keeping time as I sing.

    I feel like this is maybe 90% unplanned, just surrendering to the moment and my instincts. I can't remember the last time I've looked at a set list, though I may sketch one out beforehand. I turn on the dime as the muse suggests. I've already read the room and may shift gears if I don't feel I'm connecting. But I want to do even that less and less---trusting myself and the listeners who've washed ashore to be in this thing too.

    BUT---it took MANY years of thought; listening to every kind of player; composer; singer; music---and lots of practice and self-reflection to get to the point where I can do this somewhat reliably. And there are f-ups; bad nights; mediocre ones; ground-lifting ones.

    But thinking while performing, especially improvising? Wouldn't think of it...
    A much more important question is how many ‘o’s in a smoooth one? And are there hyphens as well?

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar View Post
    Carl Barry told me years ago that Chuck Wayne approached a tune like this.

    First, he constructed a chord melody with every melody note harmonized. A chord for every note. That's an interesting exercise to try. To my ear, it makes sense ... that every melody note implies a harmony, usually with more movement than just the melody itself.

    Then, he tried to solo over every one of those chords. I don't know exactly how he accomplished that.

    This approach seems to attend, primarily, to the flow of the re-harmonized harmony rather than tonal targets. I assume he could do it more than one way.

    Apologies to Carl if I have remembered this incorrectly. Carl, for those who are unfamiliar, has been a great NYC based guitarist for, well, more than a half century now.
    Well, if you have some chords to play, just break them up…

    I like this approach. You are hanging the improvisation off the melody not the chords and that’s going to help everything sound connected.

  7. #106

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    Yea in a perfect world... we don't need to think or worry about skills, performance, musical organization or anything... (at least for some of you).

    I generally am playing guitar at gigs... I have played trombone for years and when I was younger, in Big bands and junk bands, and sure maybe I didn't really need to think as much, a melody can stand by it's self or work with almost any rehams of typical jazz playing of tunes.

    But when your performing on a instrument that for the most part... is playing and performing... HARMONY, you need to either have your shit together, which most guitarist don't seem to want to do or just don't want to show it in their playing. Disclaimer... no one on this sight... in general.

    Why do guitarist try to avoid what their instrument is designed to do. Do we like to think we're melodically divine. And that if our playing and performance is not controlled by some heavenly process... (anything but ourselves)... it's not worthy.

    I posted like a over 10 years ago on this forum.... play a solo and record it....then try and arrange or play chords to every note. (I did this as a Kid). Most will be shocked. But that's not really the point, the point is you'll become aware of what Notes imply or can imply. And then you'll begin to see and be able to hear possible musical organization. Beyond just rehearsing and performing what you've trained yourself to play...

    And yes... getting to the point where you can spell all the changes is what most seem to want to be able to do... but that's the beginning, like learning arps, scales and what the notes of those arps and scales are.... in context... of Harmony. That's part of where we start... basic mechanics, then you begin to develop understandings of how chords work together, just like basic contrapuntal musical organizations.... Eventually you play what you feel or want, because you know and understand what those feelings are and what you want and where they come and what creates those feelings in different contexts. (tunes and styles).

    Brooklyn... still have family there and around.

  8. #107

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    That's a good way to put it, Reg. Thanks...

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller View Post
    A much more important question is how many ‘o’s in a smoooth one? And are there hyphens as well?
    You know---you're a FUNNY GUY!...

  10. #109

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    Is it acceptable to have no thought processes when soloing? Asking for a friend.

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55 View Post
    Developing your personal worldview for how you approach soloing over changes is a long process to get to be able to do it well and intuitively. What thought processes do you use for how to frame what notes to hit?

    For me, I start by trying to outline each change. If I lose sight of that, I'll have in my head as a backup, the general key of the song or section that I can use to make notes fit. The end goal for me is to string together phrases that build on each other rather than only hitting each chord with disregard for the shape of the solo. However, I want to have several harmonic approaches and hit some of the chords for it to sound good. You can't only play 1 scale in jazz.

    Edit: Or how do you conceptualize when you're working tunes out for those who say only intuition during performance.
    Your statement "You can't only play 1 scale in jazz" got me thinking about Herbie Hancock's Cantaloupe Island as, in spite of its Fm, Db7, Dm(?) progression, the whole melody in the "head" is constructed on the F blues scale. The line lands on F, the 3rd degree of Dm, (and F is also the 3rd degree of Db).

    If you tweak a note or two and add some chromatics to taste over Db7, F blues sounds great to me there but the real challenge is the Dm (is that really a Dm?) because some (actually, almost all!) notes are going to clash - or maybe that's a good thing here? The "safe" option is of course to switch to D dorian or maybe Am penta, but that doesn't work for me personally.

    Anyway, Rich Severson appears to have similar ears on this, as I discovered recently* ... and I'm still trying to figure out what Herbie is playing over the "Dm" in his performances. It certainly ain't D dorian. (*I refer to the treatment of the Dm in his Cantalope Island Lesson Demos YT vid (2014), where he actually plays a D7#9. Guy's got a great feel).

    So yeah, curiously, sometimes you maybe should "play just one scale"
    Last edited by Peter C; 09-12-2021 at 07:11 PM.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C View Post
    and I'm still trying to figure out what Herbie is playing over the "Dm" in his performances. It certainly ain't D dorian.
    He's not doing anything over Dm, just some notes :-)


  13. #112

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    I keep thinking about one sentence of all-purpose soloing instruction.

    Play the chromatic scale and leave out the notes that don't sound good.

    Or, stated another way.

    Leave out the notes that don't sound good.

  14. #113
    Quote Originally Posted by Reg View Post
    But when your performing on a instrument that for the most part... is playing and performing... HARMONY, you need to either have your shit together, which most guitarist don't seem to want to do or just don't want to show it in their playing. Disclaimer... no one on this sight... in general.

    Why do guitarist try to avoid what their instrument is designed to do. Do we like to think we're melodically divine. And that if our playing and performance is not controlled by some heavenly process... (anything but ourselves)... it's not worthy.

    And yes... getting to the point where you can spell all the changes is what most seem to want to be able to do... but that's the beginning, like learning arps, scales and what the notes of those arps and scales are.... in context... of Harmony. That's part of where we start... basic mechanics, then you begin to develop understandings of how chords work together, just like basic contrapuntal musical organizations.... Eventually you play what you feel or want, because you know and understand what those feelings are and what you want and where they come and what creates those feelings in different contexts. (tunes and styles).
    Yes yes yes

  15. #114

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    What me worry? Was that Alfreds quip?

  16. #115

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    I am still rearranging arps.keeping it related to the melody.I never get board because my emotional state changes and so does the tune.

  17. #116

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    I 'm thinking about next gig.

  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by EarlBrother View Post
    What me worry? Was that Alfreds quip?
    What is your thought process when you're soloing over changes?-91br-xjvz-l-_ac_sx425_-jpg

  19. #118
    I asked this question to the guys on open studio and then they came up with this lesson which was pretty much a relevant response. Pretty cool lesson on how to play shapes to have something easy to play and have it fit plus achieve a mod sound.

    Last edited by Clint 55; 10-06-2021 at 12:09 PM.

  20. #119

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Memorize the melody. Disregard the changes. Play and improvise on the melody. You will find that your ears will do the work . .
    Yes... but I wouldn't say exclusively. There still has to be some knowledge of how things fit. Otherwise they won't, or they might by luck :-)