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Or is it "synthetic" or "exotic"? Spell it in any order or mode, but what is it? The notes are:
D E F G A Bb C C#
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02-10-2021 03:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I do not find anything 'exotic' or 'synthetic' in it.
To me scales mostly do not have colour on their own.. I believe we mostly associate then with some harmonic context even unconsiously and imply relationships.
But I am not sure what you hear... you could make an example of a harmonic/melodic sound you hear in it..
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Jonah - thanks and I know, that is very practical and traditional of you. Call something what it is, right?
But I am curious if there is a "jazz school approved 8-tone scale goofy-ass name".
Let me see what I can do about un upload later today.
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The context is C7.
Joseph Viola - exercise for C7.pdf
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
D E F G A Bb C Db
... and rearrange the notes this way:
F G A Bb C Db D E
...and notice these two arpeggios:
F A C D (major 6th)
G Bb Db E (diminished)
It looks like something Barry Harry would talk about.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I guess you relate that c-c#-d with those bebop scale chromatisms? Or not?
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
C7b9 sound.. sort of... or C9
Or both..
Or none and just cromatism
Well anyway it is F major bebop scale if you look for conventional nomenclature.
I personally would not think of scale at all in that context but it is me..
In the exercise there are just passing chromatic notes...
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Originally Posted by Jonah
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It is D minor that they add a passing note the C# Basicly moving the 7th to a major
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Thanks Jaxon.
Given that it's a C7 (V7), and in a jazz context it makes more sense to me as F Major Bebop. The alternative analysis is some kind of goofy Mixolydian, given that it has a b9 and natural 9.
At any rate, it has a cool sound when played as written. Finale exports a WAV file but I can't upload that format here. Too much of a disk hog I'm guessing...
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
It's in key of C major using sharps for ascending and flats for descending.
C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G D Db
then an octave lower
C C# D F E D C C# D Bb G F E G E Db C
Notice the D vs E near the end of the lines.
Notice the context is stated C7.
Notice there is no A note; an A natural would sound Cmaj6th and an Ab would sound Caug in context of C.
The C C# D sounds like a classical ornament...
If you treat the C# as an ornament and omit it, then things happen depending on what is done with the missing A note:
If you allow the natural A, you can have scales F major, F ionian, D natural minor, and G dorian.
If you allow the A to be Ab, you can have F melodic minor.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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The question may be from a Jazz context but the
attachment score may be Classical (it is for viola).
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It does look classical - except classical scores don't usually do chord symbols!
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
But it doesn't mean you can't play the mixolydian mode of F major and stick some other note in it if you want. We often do that without thinking about it anyway because it's easier to finger. I mean, you could play E F Gb G A Bb B C over a C7 but god knows what it is!
So, to keep to your example, the notes you posted are the F major scale (perfectly right over C7) with the added Db. They've decided that's called the F major bebop scale. (All these bebop scales are manufactured anyway).
By the way, it wouldn't work if the chord was a C7b9. The natural D would throw it out.
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Thr excercise in PDF have C# as strictly passig.. it is not about C7b9... to me C7b9 should sound with b9 stressed.
Melodic passing note on weak beat is not enough to get the colour of dom7b9 for my ears...
F Bebop major scale motives fits perfectly well if one treats scale as melodic pattern.
I would rather think of chor tones and extentions with passing notes but I can uderstand scale thinling as linear approach too here.
Notice there is no A note; an A natural would sound Cmaj6th and an Ab would sound Caug in context of C.
The C C# D sounds like a classical ornament...
The question may be from a Jazz context but the
attachment score may be Classical (it is for viola).
The pattern sounds totally jazz language.
Besides it would be crazy to notate score for viola like this)))
Too high and treble clef... really not conventional)))
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
I use this scale a lot, but I usually think of it as a C7 (mixolydian) scale with an option to use C#. In this case I would most frequently use it before a D chord of some kind.
This is my default way of playing a leading tone dim - I or a minor II V I
It’s kind of the standard way to handle this progression in bop
Barry Harris describes this as playing the C7 into the third of A7. C7 is a good choice over Em7b5
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Oh yeah, it also has the same notes as F major sixth diminished
Scales are useless without some idea of how to use them to create music though. Schools of thought vary.
Anyway the attached document doesn’t look like the way I would use the scale.
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Originally Posted by pauln
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Originally Posted by Jonah
It's an excerpt (labeled "Complex" by me) in Finale, of an exercise that Joseph Viola included in his chord studies book for saxophone, Berklee Press. The example right next to this one - still on C7, has an exercise with G Minor Bebop, 4th mode. These scale runs come at the end of some studies on C7, most of which are centered on approach notes - chromatic from below, scale tone from above, then both. Then some wider interval approaches and enclosures that sound a little more "out". Finally these scale runs which are not vanilla mixolydian.
That should add some context. Sorry to have confused.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Yeah, manufactured. Dan Haerle called them "synthetic". Same idea.
I guess any scale is, until it's used enough and thus puts on some weight.
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Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
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No, was not a test but if it makes it more fun that’s OK.
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Originally Posted by WILSON 1
Which raises an interesting point; it’s not the notes always, often it’s the emphasis.
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