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  1. #51

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    When I first encountered the name I thought it was just some dumb buzzword that I should ignore. Then one of my teachers taught them to me and I realized that they're a pretty straight forward way to looking at guitar voicings. I wouldn't debate people that they need to learn them but they have been useful for me.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    TBH what chord voicings are called has never been for me the most difficult part of mastering them...

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    When I first encountered the name I thought it was just some dumb buzzword that I should ignore. Then one of my teachers taught them to me and I realized that they're a pretty straight forward way to looking at guitar voicings. I wouldn't debate people that they need to learn them but they have been useful for me.
    I learned about the drop2 \ drop3 chord concept at this forum. My prior guitar teachers never mentioned them.

    Like someone else said, with inversions, what was most important to me was what the bottom and top notes are, thus that was my focus.

    As an amateur, the best thing I got from this discussion were the practical application comments.
    Last edited by jameslovestal; 12-25-2020 at 02:24 PM.

  5. #54

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    Nvm .. No reason for me to worsen the train wreck this thread has become ..
    Last edited by Lobomov; 12-24-2020 at 09:12 PM.

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    When I first encountered the name I thought it was just some dumb buzzword that I should ignore. Then one of my teachers taught them to me and I realized that they're a pretty straight forward way to looking at guitar voicings. I wouldn't debate people that they need to learn them but they have been useful for me.
    I can see ths point. If you have to organize voicings to facilitate acquisition (meaning you get them into your playing) why not do it this way?

    But, as I pointed out, there are other ways which, I strongly suspect, that a majority of players have used effectively without undue difficulty. I further suspect that drop-n is just another way to do it, but not a better or faster way.

  7. #56

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    A lot of drop 2s and 3s are standard voicings. A couple of teachers I had were big on them; my current teacher has never mentioned them. They can make for some nice voice leading. 1st inversions can be awkward.

    Maybe ask yourself how many chord voicings do you need to know?

  8. #57

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    Let’s hope nobody got this for Christmas:

    Drop 2 chords.  Really?-ff2ea105-f53d-4ce8-a9aa-a587add52946-jpeg
    Last edited by grahambop; 12-25-2020 at 08:10 AM.

  9. #58

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    Drop 2 chords.  Really?-eternal-happiness-jpg

  10. #59
    Drop 2 chords aren't anything to get upset about one way or the other really. There's always a debate on forum around "what is the point?" etc., and it's a valid question. They were kind of a big thing in guitar several years ago, mostly as a way to systematically work on chord structures. That's really the only "purpose " for them. They lay out well on the guitar, and you can actually play all of the inversions of common chord types reasonably well, at least compared to other types of voicings, specially straight close voicings.

    On piano, when we're learning basic voicings or new voicings, we very often learn them in stacks thirds, closed position, first. There are good reasons for this. Makes a lot of sense physically and mentally in terms of organization. You can learn basic seventh chords, inversions of the same, and then things like replacing the root with 9th, or 5th with the 6th/13th etc.

    However, these easily understood close voicings are nearly impossible on the guitar, but drop2 works pretty well for this.

    In terms of "Why do you need to know this?", you mostly don't. Every beginner should learn basic common grips that players have played forever first. This is extra credit stuff for nerds who like to get into the cracks of things in more systematic ways. That cuts out a lot of people, but again it's not a "have to". It's a "get to".

    I never heard all of this explanation by anyone else who actually knows. This is just my own BS interpretation, after seeing multiple threads with people getting upset about needless contrived theoretical constructs or something. To be fair, a lot of really great players and teachers teach this way and have worked through the fretboard this way. It's not a big deal. It's just one way of looking at it. If I was taking lessons with someone and they told me to work it all out, I probably would. it certainly makes things easier when you're learning to harmonize melodic minor chords for the first time etc. Removes some variables, and reduces a great deal from just "endless possibilities".

    There are also a great number of players and teachers who don't care and have never done it and who would scoff at the suggestion of it. Neither is wrong in my opinion. Randy Vincent's a great teacher. He's just ONE who uses them more systematically .

  11. #60

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    I much prefer thinking in terms of chord tone spacing than how many notes of a close voicings have descended. I am highly interested in the data represented but less so in this naming system. Still, given this preference, I am more happy than sad that a drop chord codification exists.

    "How many chords do you really need?" has been asked in this thread.

    A player who can effectively apply a small collection of chords is in a better
    position than one who knows a large quantity but hasn't yet integrated them into active musical usage. Option 3, effective application of an ever expanding universe of harmonic options. I choose the path behind door #3.

  12. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako;[URL="tel:1085846"
    1085846[/URL]]Option 3, effective application of an ever expanding universe of harmonic options. I choose the path behind door #3.
    a bit OT
    im trying to get into 13b9 sound at the moment

    ie. in C ,

    G13b9
    (3)x3454

    a E/G type sound
    can anyone suggest a good song to apply
    this sound into ?

    thanks mates

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    I much prefer thinking in terms of chord tone spacing than how many notes of a close voicings have descended.
    The two are not unrelated. For example, in Barry Harris's 6-diminished harmony, drop-2 chords always have a scalar 10th between the two outside voices and a scalar 3rd between the two inside ones.

  14. #63

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    The two are not unrelated.
    Yes, agree totally. Different orientation to the exact same results.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    a bit OT
    im trying to get into 13b9 sound at the moment

    ie. in C ,

    G13b9
    (3)x3454

    a E/G type sound
    can anyone suggest a good song to apply
    this sound into ?

    thanks mates
    If you mean harmonising the melody, obviously you’d need a tune which sits on a b9 on a dominant at some point, no doubt there is one but off the top of my head I can’t think of one right now. I don’t think I’ve used a 13b9 for this purpose very often, so maybe it’s a bit unusual.

    But it can be used for comping if used sparingly, I use it for that now and then.

    A good sound is to use a rootless 13b9 during a ii-V, for example you can go Am to D13b9 to Gm like this:

    5x555x
    x3444x
    3x333x

    I think Peter Bernstein uses this a lot.

  16. #65

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    I like this book, and his one on three-note voicings. Lots of useful ideas on voicings in context of melodic movement, not just isolated “grips”.

    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Let’s hope nobody got this for Christmas:

    Drop 2 chords.  Really?-ff2ea105-f53d-4ce8-a9aa-a587add52946-jpeg

  17. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by BickertRules
    I like this book, and his one on three-note voicings. Lots of useful ideas on voicings in context of melodic movement, not just isolated “grips”.
    yeah I was just joking, I have both books, they are very good.

    And a plug for Randy Vincent - one of the books had some pages missing so I emailed him. He immediately arranged for his UK distributor to send me a replacement and it turned up the next day!

  18. #67

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    Everything makes sense if you look at it mechanically.

    With multiple instruments like a horn section, the arrangement often places the melody line on top - and then removes the second from the top to form a gap in order to set the melody line apart. The numbering for drop chords starts from the top down because the melody line may be any of the chord's pitches, depending on inversion and voicing.

    With the piano, drop chords are a mechanism to do a couple things; drop-2 places a larger gap between the melody note and the rest of the chord, but it also frees the "second from the top finger" which can now work with the top finger (melody note) to articulate and embellish the melody line. This allows a mediocre pianist to read a lead sheet (chord symbol and scored melody line) by playing the specified chord in such a way that the top note is the melody note, drop the second from the top and play it an octave below with the thumb of the left hand, and have the two top fingers of the right hand available for playing melody. It is a mechanism that is an introduction to voice leading, whereby additional drop-n mechanisms come into play. It becomes natural as one learns to do voice leading directly and one leaves off thinking about drop this or that.

    On the guitar one finds that of the many chord forms one learns, some are drop-2 and some are not. Unlike on piano, a drop-2 chord on the guitar does not necessarily free an extra finger for working the melody line. One may notice that some chord forms are drop-2, especially when playing chord melody stuff, but deliberately seeking to place drop chords on the guitar seems off point; the point is rather to play voice leading and other things for their own sake, which may include drop chords by incidental accident.