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  1. #1

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    Can you think of a standard in the great American Songbook that specifically calls for a Lydian Dominant V7 #11 to I tonic chord? (not IV7, not backdoor stuff, just traditional V7 to I) . I don't think there are any in the classic Great American Songbook.

    Wikipedia:
    the "American Song Book", the songs published during the Golden Age of this genre include those popular and enduring tunes from the 1920s to the 1950s that were created for Broadway theatre, musical theatre, and Hollywoodmusical film" (Composers: Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Rodgers, Arlen, Kern, Carmichael, Styne, Mercer, Van Huesen, etc).
    Last edited by rintincop; 12-08-2020 at 12:37 AM.

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  3. #2

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    Good question. I certainly can’t. Here are some thoughts:

    1) How do you know it’s not a 7b5 without hearing a 9th and/or 13th? I would imagine melodic direction
    so:
    2) The most common resolution would presumably go V7#11–>Imaj9 or Im9. I don’t think many standards use this resolution (as they tend not to use 9 in this way) but an obvious jazz example is Blue in Green. Though isn’t that chord usually written as an altered dominant (7b5 chord)?

    Maybe Brazilian tunes?*
    3) And do versions of the changes by jazz musicians count, because I would be gob smacked if Bill Evans hadn’t slipped this in somewhere in a standard reharm? (Although would have to be in the middle voices wouldn’t it?)
    4) many early 60s/late 50s players seem to like half whole, so this sound is perhaps in there somewhere. But that of course is ambiguous as to whether it’s a #11 or b5 as the dim scale breaks the alphabet rule

    * I suppose you could resolve a b5 to 1 - common bebop sound but see point 1)
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-07-2020 at 03:54 PM.

  4. #3

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    Oh I suppose you could do it in the middle 8 of Early Autumn ‘just a boy and girl...’

  5. #4

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    In minor tunes V7#11 can go to the relative major. Technically not tonic however unless it is seen as modulation to the relative major.
    Eg.
    In Cmin, Bb7#11 -> EbMaj7 (enharmonic to Bb7b5 -> Cmin9), or Bb7#11 -> EbMaj6 (ie Cmin7). This happens in many tunes of course but usually not an actual modulation to the relative major (Note it's not a backdoor either as backdoor would be to a major.)
    OP is about going to tonic, there might be tunes that stay in the relative major long enough for that major chord to be the new tonic.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    In minor tunes V7#11 can go to the relative major. Technically not tonic however unless it is seen as modulation to the relative major.
    Eg.
    In Cmin, Bb7#11 -> EbMaj7 (enharmonic to Bb7b5 -> Cmin9), or Bb7#11 -> EbMaj6 (ie Cmin7). This happens in many tunes of course but usually not an actual modulation to the relative major (Note it's not a backdoor either as backdoor would be to a major.)
    OP is about going to tonic, there might be tunes that stay in the relative major long enough for that major chord to be the new tonic.
    Once I Loved has a iim7b5 V7#11 to Imaj7 going into the first ending. It then goes to I7 and back to the top. This is not plain vanilla harmony and I think it can be deemed a false cadence, but there you have it.

  7. #6

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    Oh I tr*nscrib*d Once I Loved the other day - Joao's changes I thought to be something like this:

    V7#11 to the tonic, any Great American Songbook tune really call for this?-once-i-loved-jpg

    These are the chords he appears to play, FWIW. So that specific progression doesn't appear here, but there is a similar cadence to minor in the last few bars of the coda. (Joao seems to play a different form to the iReal blowing changes.)

    Sorry really not the best chart (I forgot to write in the first time bar, doh! Also - goofy flat chord symbols because horn players. You could also quibble about the dim chords).

    Also the chords here don't reflect what's going on in the melody at all.

    But TBH the chords sounded more like b5 than #11 to me. It's a really tough call to make. I wonder if Joao himself even made the distinction?

    I went with b5 because the top of the chord is clearly the 3rd, and I would expect to hear a #11 as part of the upper structure, as the nomenclature suggests. iReal has them as 7#11 chords. Also, we are going towards a minor chord and the melody suggests it.

    Anyway, good catch. I thought Bossa might be a more likely source of these types of changes. The harmony tends to be a bit more extended than the vanilla GASB stuff.
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    Last edited by christianm77; 12-07-2020 at 06:42 PM.

  8. #7

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    OK this is a bit tenuous, but hang on it there...

    Insenatez

    Dm9 Dbo7 Cm6 G7/B Bbmaj7

    We could see G7/B as a sort of bII altered chord, so therefore a V lydian dominant?

    It is a very unusual cadence.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK this is a bit tenuous, but hang on it there...

    Insenatez

    Dm9 Dbo7 Cm6 G7/B Bbmaj7

    We could see G7/B as a sort of bII altered chord, so therefore a V lydian dominant?

    It is a very unusual cadence.
    If you mean playing B D# F A instead of B D F A (with or without a G), I think the problem is the D#. I think the voice leading sounds best if the transition from D# to D is over the G7, not the Bb.

    On the other hand, this might be an excellent contribution to the Peter Bernstein thread.

  10. #9

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    Tune Up?

  11. #10
    "in the great American Songbook", not the Brazilian composers catalog or other modern styles.
    V7 #11 to Tonic major.
    I should have mentioned that the logic for necessitating a V7#11 to tonic major would be because the melody features that note on the V7. (#4 or b5, either is fine). I can't think of such a tune.
    "Tune Up" is a great example, but it's not really from the so called great American Songbook (Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Rodgers, Arlen, Kern, Carmichael, Styne, Mercer, Van Huesen, etc). Tune up is more a bebop standard, for blowing over the changes.

    I postulate it's not done on V7 to I in the great American Songbook.
    V7 to I uses is either b9, b13, or #9 ("altered" types category), but never Lydian Dominant (just #4) on a V7 to I tonic.

    #4 (= #11 Lydian Dominant) is reserved for and done frequently when II or IV become secondary or passing dominants. And also when bII, bIII, bV, bVI and bVII are used for secondary sort of dominants. (see my default list below)

    III7, VI7 , VII7, and I7, like the V7, are the chords that typically most often get the somewhat altered treatment of b9, b13, or #9. This partly has to do with avoiding avoid notes and staying closer (more in common) with the diatonic notes in the key of the song.

    Thus the two categories of default in general for secondary or passing dominants are either #4 type or "alt" type.
    ("alt" being anything from the b9, b13, #9, group, but not #4 alone.)

    2 basic categories of default for composers in the great American Songbook:
    I7 alt type
    bII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    II7 #4 Lyd Dom
    bIII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    III7 alt type
    IV7 #4 Lyd Dom
    bV7 #4 Lyd Dom
    V7 alt type
    bVI7 #4 Lyd Dom
    VI7 alt type
    bVII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    VII7 alt type

    Of course in jazz we can do whatever we want, we can play V7#11 to I, like with "Tune Up". But a survey of the great American Songbook reveals that the composers did not use V7#4 (Lydian Dominant) to the I tonic.

    But over my many decades of improvising, I have this frame of reference; I hear, realize, and intuitively play around these two general categories when sight reading a tune I don't know with changes that don't give any alteration clues. I actually prefer changes with no such details because I know where I want b9 or b13 or a Lydian dominant just from decades of experience with the compositions of the Great American Songbook.

    Wikipedia:
    the "American Song Book", the songs published during the Golden Age of this genre include those popular and enduring tunes from the 1920s to the 1950s that were created for Broadway theatre, musical theatre, and Hollywood musical film"
    Last edited by rintincop; 12-08-2020 at 02:15 AM.

  12. #11

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    If it was V7#11b9 to Imaj7 or I69, I would predict "yes", but V7#11" I would predict "no"; you would likely need to be listening to Soul-Church music to hear that.

    I heard this chord V7#11b9 in old Todd Rundgren records but the first time I needed to play it was in a funk soul band. They were amazed that I heard it, only occurring once for a moment in the song... Charlie Wilson - My Love Is All I Have
    2:24 - 2:26 Bb 11th chord
    2:27 Bb #11b9 chord
    2:28 back to Bb 11th chord before the Eb
    Last edited by pauln; 12-08-2020 at 12:46 AM.

  13. #12

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    I don't know. G7b5 or G7#11 to C6 sounds okay. CM7's not so good but the 6 is fine.

    If you mean does any known tune do this, I've no idea. They probably leave it to the player to decide. Or call it an alt chord (which is inaccurate).

    Or call it a #9 and let you fiddle with it :-)

  14. #13
    Of course in jazz we can do whatever we want, we can play V7#11 to I, like with "Tune Up". But a survey of the great American Songbook reveals that the composers did not use V7#4 (Lydian Dominant) to the I tonic.

  15. #14

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    Quite. It might be usual to see GV7alt-CM7 but not G7#11-CM7. That may be because the G7alt implies the G alt scale (Ab mel) but G7#11 implies G lyd dom (D mel) and the two just ain't the same.

    Doesn't mean it can never be done. As has been mentioned, the melody in Tune Up does it twice. But then it's a sort of Lydian feel tune anyway.

  16. #15

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    I like V7#11 in some ii V I's quite well.

    Dm9 G7#11 Cmaj9 sounds good to me. The melody in the soprano voice works and the rest is common enough.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I like V7#11 in some ii V I's quite well.

    Dm9 G7#11 Cmaj9 sounds good to me. The melody in the soprano voice works and the rest is common enough.
    How are you playing the G7#11?

  18. #17

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    How are you playing the G7#11?
    x5355x 3x342x x3243x

    xx3555 xx3423 xx2213

    xx7968 xx9 10 89 xx9 9 10 10

    xx7968 xx5667 xx5557

    xx10 10 10 12 xx9 10 10 9 xx998 10

    I tried some voicings with a pedal G in the soprano, but I didn't like them much.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 12-10-2020 at 04:27 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    If you mean playing B D# F A instead of B D F A (with or without a G), I think the problem is the D#. I think the voice leading sounds best if the transition from D# to D is over the G7, not the Bb.

    On the other hand, this might be an excellent contribution to the Peter Bernstein thread.
    No I mean G7/F effectively which is a Lydian dominant voicing. But of course the bass note in B - but anyway it was a reach

    This progression ONLY works in this tune. Jobim witchcraft

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    "in the great American Songbook", not the Brazilian composers catalog or other modern styles.
    V7 #11 to Tonic major.
    I should have mentioned that the logic for necessitating a V7#11 to tonic major would be because the melody features that note on the V7. (#4 or b5, either is fine). I can't think of such a tune.
    "Tune Up" is a great example, but it's not really from the so called great American Songbook (Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Rodgers, Arlen, Kern, Carmichael, Styne, Mercer, Van Huesen, etc). Tune up is more a bebop standard, for blowing over the changes.

    I postulate it's not done on V7 to I in the great American Songbook.
    V7 to I uses is either b9, b13, or #9 ("altered" types category), but never Lydian Dominant (just #4) on a V7 to I tonic.

    #4 (= #11 Lydian Dominant) is reserved for and done frequently when II or IV become secondary or passing dominants. And also when bII, bIII, bV, bVI and bVII are used for secondary sort of dominants. (see my default list below)

    III7, VI7 , VII7, and I7, like the V7, are the chords that typically most often get the somewhat altered treatment of b9, b13, or #9. This partly has to do with avoiding avoid notes and staying closer (more in common) with the diatonic notes in the key of the song.

    Thus the two categories of default in general for secondary or passing dominants are either #4 type or "alt" type.
    ("alt" being anything from the b9, b13, #9, group, but not #4 alone.)

    2 basic categories of default for composers in the great American Songbook:
    I7 alt type
    bII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    II7 #4 Lyd Dom
    bIII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    III7 alt type
    IV7 #4 Lyd Dom
    bV7 #4 Lyd Dom
    V7 alt type
    bVI7 #4 Lyd Dom
    VI7 alt type
    bVII7 #4 Lyd Dom
    VII7 alt type

    Of course in jazz we can do whatever we want, we can play V7#11 to I, like with "Tune Up". But a survey of the great American Songbook reveals that the composers did not use V7#4 (Lydian Dominant) to the I tonic.

    But over my many decades of improvising, I have this frame of reference; I hear, realize, and intuitively play around these two general categories when sight reading a tune I don't know with changes that don't give any alteration clues. I actually prefer changes with no such details because I know where I want b9 or b13 or a Lydian dominant just from decades of experience with the compositions of the Great American Songbook.

    Wikipedia:
    the "American Song Book", the songs published during the Golden Age of this genre include those popular and enduring tunes from the 1920s to the 1950s that were created for Broadway theatre, musical theatre, and Hollywood musical film"
    That was my thought as well.

    Most the #11s (and other us notes for that matter) above result via the use of a diatonic melody note on a chromatic dominant chord of some kind. So the third of the key on bVII7, seventh on IV7 that type of thing.

    Standards melodies are mostly diatonic so this makes sense - except in the case of very harmonic/chromatic melodies like Darn That Dream, secondary dominants tend not to be overly expressed in the melody, so they end up becoming upper extensions on dominants

    On II7 we can understand the note as part of the relative minor.

    So when we get to V7, we have a chromatic note that wants resolve upwards probably, and it would be to a 9th on the I or the 5 on the V7 (Tune Up) It can resolve downwards but in this case would almost certainly be heard as an V7alt to my ears.

  21. #20

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    Oh Darn That Dream has a nice example of that motion in it, but it’s not straight to tonic more

    B7#11 B7 Em

    with
    F F# G

    in the melody. And of course B7 is probably more altered in this context

    I think it makes sense to separate the nature of the voice leading from the overall modality though. This type of move would work the same in major and minor and the overall modal colour of the progression is just a matter of prevailing key.

    That said, we do like to swap the minor key into the major don’t we?

    I’ve felt that unlike the other dominants the V7 really likes a highly efficient cadence (ie the maximum number of semitone moves to tones of the I chord) and this what the altered scale provides for the vertically squeamish and the old school tritone sub provides for proper devil-may-care harmony bad boys like myself. :-)

    So the 7#11 in this context is always going to feel a bit bland compared to all the chromatic spice we associate with the V7-I. And given even when the melody is on the key 3rd as in many standards on a II V I, I will still flat the 9 on the V7 chord at least giving us the 13b9 chord. Just because, why wouldn’t you?

  22. #21

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    As a side point am I the only one who feels the altered scale is kind of an amalgamation of the classical Neapolitan Sixth with the Minor key dominant. (Which is a modally coloured IV V I really.)

    That is:

    Db/F G7b9 Cm

    Think Beethoven...

  23. #22

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    Don't forget the tritone relationship.

    G7b5 and Db7b5 are enharmonically equivalent.

    I'm sure everyone is familiar with that move to tonic.

    John

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by johnhall
    Don't forget the tritone relationship.

    G7b5 and Db7b5 are enharmonically equivalent.

    I'm sure everyone is familiar with that move to tonic.

    John
    That's true but standards typically do not specifically call for altered dominant to major tonic. It's more a comping arrangement device.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    That's true but standards typically do not specifically call for altered dominant to major tonic. It's more a comping arrangement device.
    Well that depends on what you regard as a tritone sub. Some people think bVI7 is a tritone sub of II7 and that one comes up a lot, for instance, part of the standard harmonisation of the minor scale since the 18th century.

    But tritone subs of chord V I would agree.

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well that depends on what you regard as a tritone sub. Some people think bVI7 is a tritone sub of II7 and that one comes up a lot, for instance, part of the standard harmonisation of the minor scale since the 18th century.

    But tritone subs of chord V I would agree.
    No i wasn't referring to the augmented 6th chord (Italian 6th etc). I don't think that's what OP is about.

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    No i wasn't referring to the augmented 6th chord (Italian 6th etc). I don't think that's what OP is about.
    Thats my boy! *beams*

    Well the OP isn’t really about a tritone sub either is it?

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thats my boy! *beams*

    Well the OP isn’t really about a tritone sub either is it?
    Exactly my point in my earlier post in response to someone suggesting the tritone.

  29. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    No I mean G7/F effectively which is a Lydian dominant voicing. But of course the bass note in B - but anyway it was a reach

    This progression ONLY works in this tune. Jobim witchcraft
    We were discussing G7/B. That could be F lydian dominant. With a B in the bass, if you want to think of it as B lyddom, you would have B D# F A. And, the tune chokes on the D#.

    I guess I don't understand your point. Would you break it down please?

  30. #29

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    Why would you think of it as B Lydian dominant? Not sure I get where that come in but, sure why not?

    I was thinking of it as a F Lydian Dom/B altered chord, which relates to the Op. but it would make more sense to think of it as B altered, and I often use this type of sub for a 7alt (eg G/B for B7alt)

    B lyd dom much more obvious thing to do on V

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Why would you think of it as B Lydian dominant? Not sure I get where that come in but, sure why not?

    I was thinking of it as a F Lydian Dom/B altered chord, which relates to the Op. but it would make more sense to think of it as B altered, and I often use this type of sub for a 7alt (eg G/B for B7alt)

    B lyd dom much more obvious thing to do on V
    Thank you. I understand what you were saying. I didn't think of it as B lyd dom. But the chord had a B in the bass and an F, so I thought maybe that's what you were referring to. F Lyd Dom has the same problem. There's no Eb in that chord (G7/F) as I hear the harmony of the tune.

  32. #31

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    That's why I said it's a bit of stretch, but then it's kind of bollocks anyway. I don't actually think I hear it that way. The lack of the Eb does tend to reduce the dominant function of that chord.

    The cadence is pretty weak. A lot of common tones, and the only semitone motion is the bass.

    B D F G
    Bb D F A

    It only works in this tune to my ears. As I say Jobim witchcraft. He's like a composer or something.

    But to take it back to those chord scales for a minute.... and this is why I say its bollocks really... No-one thought in chord/scale systems when writing these songs because they weren't thinking in chord symbols at all. They thought melody first, harmony second - so the difference between a 7#11 and 7b5 even if you find one is kind of ambiguous. Which leads us to the question - how do you tell?

    In the examples listed above by rintincop, it is a #11 based on the enharmonic spelling, chromatic chord with a diatonic melody note. So E on Bb7 in C major, etc.

    OTOH for it to be a #11 on a V7, you need a chromatic note. The melodic spelling would suggest it resolves a half step up. I would imagine in any example she find, the #11 would resolve to 5th before the chord changes because GASB composers don't seem to be in the habit of resolving to the 9ths of tonic chords. This is also true of the Tune Up example. Do we see those chords as being #11 because the overall chord scale might reflect the #11 if we were thinking that way? Or do we see it as just a passing dissonance?

    The Darn That Dream example is kind of weird because it's certainly a #11 on the B7 ascending to 5, but the overall modality is minor, which would tend to imply (usually) b5 harmony to a dogmatic jazz theorist. Maybe they would think half whole scale? Good god.

    Of course, from the point of view of standard (non jazz) harmony, it's a lower chromatic neighbour tone appoggiatura in the melody. (In fact even to write it as #11 and not #4 is kind of silly, but that's what we are used to seeing.) It has no real modality, and the chord symbol merely reflects that melodic moment, so someone reading the chart doesn't clash with the singer or whatever. (Chord symbols should be treated with a healthy disrespect.)

    So, anyway, to find a song a melody that goes C#--->D on G7 and Cmaj9 or Cm9 puts you more in the realm of jazz compositions, like Blue in Green etc. And you can obviously make a better case for chord scale or proto-chord scale type thinking in the richer harmony Bill Evans, Strayhorn etc.

    So kind of you don't get V7#11 chords almost by definition - that's not how they are heard... Which is a bit like what Tal 175 said about 7b5 chords, the other side of the coin.

    But it isn't totally meaningless because there are quite a few jazz musicians who do in fact play standards this way even though this is not how they were written. So, I dunno. What do you play on that B7 in Darn That Dream, I guess?
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-08-2020 at 07:56 PM.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    That's why I said it's a bit of stretch, but then it's kind of bollocks anyway. I don't actually think I hear it that way. The lack of the Eb does tend to reduce the dominant function of that chord.

    The cadence is pretty weak. A lot of common tones, and the only semitone motion is the bass.

    B D F G
    Bb D F A

    It only works in this tune to my ears. As I say Jobim witchcraft. He's like a composer or something.

    But to take it back to those chord scales for a minute.... and this is why I say its bollocks really... No-one thought in chord/scale systems when writing these songs because they weren't thinking in chord symbols at all. They thought melody first, harmony second - so the difference between a 7#11 and 7b5 even if you find one is kind of ambiguous. Which leads us to the question - how do you tell?

    In the examples listed above by rintincop, it is a #11 based on the enharmonic spelling, chromatic chord with a diatonic melody note. So E on Bb7 in C major, etc.

    OTOH for it to be a #11 on a V7, you need a chromatic note. The melodic spelling would suggest it resolves a half step up. I would imagine in any example she find, the #11 would resolve to 5th before the chord changes because GASB composers don't seem to be in the habit of resolving to the 9ths of tonic chords. This is also true of the Tune Up example. Do we see those chords as being #11 because the overall chord scale might reflect the #11 if we were thinking that way? Or do we see it as just a passing dissonance?

    The Darn That Dream example is kind of weird because it's certainly a #11 on the B7 ascending to 5, but the overall modality is minor, which would tend to imply (usually) b5 harmony to a dogmatic jazz theorist. Maybe they would think half whole scale? Good god.

    Of course, from the point of view of standard (non jazz) harmony, it's a lower chromatic neighbour tone appoggiatura in the melody. (In fact even to write it as #11 and not #4 is kind of silly, but that's what we are used to seeing.) It has no real modality, and the chord symbol merely reflects that melodic moment, so someone reading the chart doesn't clash with the singer or whatever. (Chord symbols should be treated with a healthy disrespect.)

    So, anyway, to find a song a melody that goes C#--->D on G7 and Cmaj9 or Cm9 puts you more in the realm of jazz compositions, like Blue in Green etc. And you can obviously make a better case for chord scale or proto-chord scale type thinking in the richer harmony Bill Evans, Strayhorn etc.

    So kind of you don't get V7#11 chords almost by definition - that's not how they are heard... Which is a bit like what Tal 175 said about 7b5 chords, the other side of the coin.

    But it isn't totally meaningless because there are quite a few jazz musicians who do in fact play standards this way even though this is not how they were written. So, I dunno. What do you play on that B7 in Darn That Dream, I guess?
    The chords we're talking about are Am7 B7#11 B7 to Em. I seem to like the V7#11 to tonic well enough.

    To my ear, it's a ii V im in Em. Am7 has a G instead of an F#, but, that small point aside, it's an F#m7b5.

    The next chord is certainly B7#11, or is it?

    Maybe it's F7 for one beat and then B7 (at least, I hear that). Thence to Em.

    My first chorus comp would probably leave the fifths out of those chords. After that, I might still not bother with the B7#11 and just leave that sound to the soloist's discretion. Or, if the soloist was avoiding that, I might play it to inject a little bit of the original melody into the comping. Or I might play it and let the soloist stay out of my way, er .... I mean, be inspired by it.

    For soloing, I like the sound of the F. So, I'd hope that the pianist didn't play an F# right there. I'd be thinking B7 or Em and picking the specific notes by ear.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    x5355x 3x342x x3243x

    xx3555 xx34233 xx2213

    xx7968 xx9 10 89 xx9 9 10 10

    xx7968 xx5667 xx5557

    xx10 10 10 12 xx9 10 10 9 xx998 10

    I tried some voicings with a pedal G in the soprano, but I didn't like them much.
    Nice. Sounds good to me.