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  1. #1

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    Hi

    I'd like your comments on this chord, B7 in the key of C major and/or also B7 in the key of A minor. It's a chord that appears less frequently than others, I think, so I'm not finding many opportunities to see how it works. I've seen it in a few tunes, and sometimes it appears briefly in complex circle turnaronds doing whatever sort of VII-III-VI-II-V-I.

    Also, I'd like your comments on this chord in the song Alone Together, measure 9, which "A" is:

    Dm | A7 | Dm | A7 |
    Dm | D7 | Gm | % |
    E7 | C7 | F | A7 | D | % |

    I don't find logic in its presence. Harmonically it looks detached to me, and the melody is just a long E note. Is E7-C7-F a known cadence? The voice leading from E7 to C7 involves the fifths of the chords, but I don't know whether that's relevant at all.

    Cheers,

    Alex

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  3. #2

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    the answer to both questions is Idim/bIIIdim. try to find a teacher who understands this. you'll need to investigate different uses and subs for Idim/bIIIdim as in just friends and body and soul. can you spot these instances and the subs? (hint: the Bm7 E7 in alone together is a sub with Abdim being the original chord).you also need to study tunes like whispering for the B7 in C or UMMG or nobody else but me to understand the uses and the moving tendencies of Idim/bIIIdim. the song is you is a nice tune to study this stuff as well.

  4. #3

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    I don't know about the B7 - C although I've seen explanations before. Em7 is a sub for CM7, of course, and B7 is the V of Em. That might have something to do with it.


    For Alone Together, quite a few transcriptions treat the E7, or Bm7/E7, as an E7b9 or G#o (Abo). Probably if you think of it as Abo to Gm that would make more sense.

    (edit) That chord would have to be played as Abo, not Bm7/E7, because a diminished line would clash with the Bm7 (although it works nicely with the rest of the tune).

    Apart from that it's really just part of the tune, an unusual sound that makes it more attractive, and it is a lovely tune. It's probably a mistake to over-analyse it or try to find some hidden theoretical reason for everything.

    (I have heard it suggested that there's a sort of internal line that starts on the Bb of Gm7, to A of the Bm7, to G# of E7, to G and F of Gm7, to E of C7, to D of Em7b5, to C# of A7 and DM7, but that might be pushing it!)

    Personally, I just play the Bm7/E7. What's the harm? Works fine.
    Last edited by ragman1; 10-16-2020 at 08:36 AM.

  5. #4

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    Where iReal has

    | D-6 | Am7b5 D7b9 | G-7 | % |
    | B-7 E7 | G-7 C7 | F |
    bars 5 - 11

    FWIW Dick 'correct changes guy' Hyman's changes are

    | Dm Dm6 | Am7b5/Eb D7 | Gm Gm6 | Gm(maj7) Gm |
    | G#o7 | Gm7 Bbm6 | F

    With these as an alt
    | Dm6/9 | Eb9#11 D7 D7b9 | Gm6/9 | Am9 D9 |
    | Bm9 E9 | Bbm9 Eb9 | Fmaj7

  6. #5

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    Great insight, chaps, thanks a lot, and points taken.

    Thinking of bIIIdim, I don't see it often at all either, but I've seen it in Bye Bye Blackbird measure 6, and it goes to IIm much like you suggest this other one does (I wrote V but should've written II-V).

    I understand it's pointless to overanalyse things... but being able to relate whatever to something you already know sometimes helps, specially if the ear agrees on the relationship in question. Maybe

  7. #6

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    The weirdest thing is it goes from and back to IIm which I don't think is very common

  8. #7

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    | Dm6/9 | Eb9#11 D7 D7b9 | Gm6/9 | Am9 D9 |
    | Bm9 E9 | Bbm9 Eb9 | Fmaj7
    That's quite clever.

  9. #8

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    Of course playing E7 F over C7 F sounds great

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    FWIW Dick 'correct changes guy' Hyman's changes are
    What source is Dick Hyman's changes?

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Of course playing E7 F over C7 F sounds great
    Then just do this for measure 9 on?:

    E7 | % | F | A7 | D | % ||

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by alez
    What source is Dick Hyman's changes?
    It's an old out of print book.
    Access to this page has been denied.


    Then just do this for measure 9 on?:

    E7 | % | F | A7 | D | % ||
    Maybe not enough movement there?

    But just saying its a good cheeky sounding sub for II-V-I's etc

    Dm B7 Cmaj7 for example. Try it.

  12. #11
    You know sometimes life is like a series of two fives where the tension never resolves!

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It's an old out of print book.
    It looks good. I'll see if I can buy one second hand. Thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Maybe not enough movement there?
    Probably so for comping, soloing may be fine I guess.

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    But just saying its a good cheeky sounding sub for II-V-I's etc

    Dm B7 Cmaj7 for example. Try it.
    I'm doing it. It sounds a little unexpected for now But I like it.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve burchfield
    You know sometimes life is like a series of two fives where the tension never resolves!
    My year has been an endless II-V vamp m8

  15. #14

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    Or just V. At least, that's what they say

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by steve burchfield
    You know sometimes life is like a series of two fives where the tension never resolves!
    Thank you... does anybody feel like this tune was written by somebody trying to find out how to use a diminished chord substitution? I'm guessing they just messed around until they were happy with how it sounded. Jazz theory has become so stifling... things don't always move in a simple, logical way.... thank god