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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    And then there is the tendency to mistake fortunate happenstance of history and geography for some sort of innate superiority, which brings us back to Schenker
    Sorry got a bit triggered there. *ahem*

    Quite.

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  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    You dont like Schumann??? Dude was a genius
    A genius at boring the bollocks off me.

    'Ooh! What about the harmonic innovation???'

    'Ooh, what about the ability not to be bore the bollocks off me?'

  4. #53

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    He's as bad as Debussy. Overrated dribbly ditchwater. I'm so glad Bill Evans took his ideas and did something worthwhile with them so we don't have to listen to him any more.

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    I watched the entire video. It was very professional and well done.

    It’s clear that both Joe Feagan and Ewell have each done their homework. When you’ve exact quotes of Schenker’s views towards blacks being unable to govern themselves, dismissing black spirituals as a ripoff of Euro theory, and saying very racist things about jazz music an entire picture of Schenker is formed. You can’t separate his theories from his biology. In fact the two are inseparable, which is the point Ewell is making. I don’t see any problem with what Ewell is pointing out. In fact we should be thankful he’s pointing these facts about Schenker out to us. It’s 2020! If it’s not a time for true diversity, then when?
    Well I've started watching the lecture and it seems pretty - standard? Uncontroversial even?

    A bit of background - as Music Edu student, we spend a lot of time discussing assumptions of Classical Music superiority, the problems of ensuring social justice and diversity in music education and so on. This stuff is very much in the zeitgeist of mainstream music education. For instance post BLM the music service put out a memo saying we should all feature more black composers (might want to have a word with the exam boards maybe, possibly?)

    The problem for me personally is that I'm not a classical music educator, so while watching classic music education undergo long overdue spasms of self reflection is heartening on some level, it is also quite boring. These things rapidly become apparent.

    - classical musicians will only accept feedback or criticism on their practices from within their own tribe.
    - few of them seem to have any idea of what goes on outside of classical music and cheerfully stereotype other cultures
    - at the same time they are always BANGING on about and never shut up.

    Other than that, it's all good. I'm just in my own little corner, trying to decide whether modern jazz education's problems are cultural or systemic. No-one bothers me.

  6. #55

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    It’s important to watch the video because Ewell has many of the quotes from Schenker which displays his racism. This is why people are worked up about Schenker. Ewell presents his case like a well horned country lawyer who slices and dices his opponent. I don’t see how one can separate him from his comments for they’re too inflammatory towards non whites. It’s pretty sickening stuff.

  7. #56

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    LOL. Philistine, both wrote great, great music.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Philistine, both wrote great, great music.
    Prove it ;-)

  9. #58

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Well I've started watching the lecture and it seems pretty - standard? Uncontroversial even?

    A bit of background - as Music Edu student, we spend a lot of time discussing assumptions of Classical Music superiority, the problems of ensuring social justice and diversity in music education and so on. This stuff is very much in the zeitgeist of mainstream music education. For instance post BLM the music service put out a memo saying we should all feature more black composers (might want to have a word with the exam boards maybe, possibly?)

    The problem for me personally is that I'm not a classical music educator, so while watching classic music education undergo long overdue spasms of self reflection is heartening on some level, it is also quite boring. These things rapidly become apparent.

    - classical musicians will only accept feedback or criticism on their practices from within their own tribe.
    - few of them seem to have any idea of what goes on outside of classical music and cheerfully stereotype other cultures
    - at the same time they are always BANGING on about and never shut up.

    Other than that, it's all good. I'm just in my own little corner, trying to decide whether modern jazz education's problems are cultural or systemic. No-one bothers me.
    But it’s not just tribal. Per the video, 1.5% of all the thousands of books printed, in America are from black people. That’s today. So yes, that is a problem. Again, Ewell presents those numbers too in his presentation. The man got a bleeping standing ovation afterward. Okay that’s not saying much but what it is saying is he’s a polished speaker who takes no prisoners, and I suspect that’s why he’s being attacked. Remember, he didn’t seek out this notoriety, in spite of what BMW says. But I like that Ewell calls a spade a spade.

  10. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Prove it ;-)
    OK, here you go
    http://freejazz.ca/theory-harmony-an...-glenhalls.pdf

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Oh god, you are joking aren’t you?

  12. #61

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    We had Schenkerian analysis in theory courses way back in 1980. It just seemed like reducing large chunks of a piece as elaborations of either I or V in whatever predominant key that section belonged to.

    Politics never came up once. Why should it come up now?

  13. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    We had Schenkerian analysis in theory courses way back in 1980. It just seemed like reducing large chunks of a piece as elaborations of either I or V in whatever predominant key that section belonged to.

    Politics never came up once. Why should it come up now?
    Uh, I don’t know, maybe perhaps people aren’t allowing racists to rule music theory in 2020, and in 1980 the youth protesting today weren’t yet born. For starters. And blacks had barely had the chance to vote until the 70’s. So it’s taken them 40 years to attack racist theorists. What’s your hurry?

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Uh, I don’t know, maybe perhaps people aren’t allowing racists to rule music theory in 2020, and in 1980 the youth protesting today weren’t yet born. For starters. And blacks had barely had the chance to vote until the 70’s. So it’s taken them 40 years to attack racist theorists. What’s your hurry?
    What does music theory have to do with politics? NOTHING.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    What does music theory have to do with politics? NOTHING.
    It’s not political. It’s undoing the whitewashing that was done with Schenker’s history. You have catching up to do. Did you even watch the video or simply making assumptions? Sounds like it.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    What does music theory have to do with politics? NOTHING.
    So, ask - what are Schenker's theories for?

    The works analysed were not written using his ideas, due to the non-invention of time travel.

    So it's not composition of new works. Therefore, what is the purpose of his theories?

  17. #66

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    But think about it. If you’re a young pup in 1980 studying this Schenker maybe it doesn’t matter to you he’s a blatant racist. But in 2020 it’s racist. And yet you’re dismissing racism, as political, to dismiss racism, and thereby giving Schenker a pass? Hello!

  18. #67
    I’m more confused than ever after reading the maze of posts here.

    It’s ironic that through my Barry Harris studies I have grown to believe that everything I do is an elaboration, movements over, or extrapolation of I and V (in terms of the chord of the moment, or more simplified to the key of the section). The so called “prolongation” concept. This realization on my
    part has nothing to do with Schenker or music academia. It has to do with decades of self directed exploration at the piano of diatonic movements, chromatic harmony, jazz harmony, and the 6th diminished scale.

  19. #68

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    Henry Martin apparently thinks that applying Schenkerian analysis to Charlie Parker’s tunes can shed new light on Bird’s compositional genius. I’m about a quarter of the way through his book and am not yet convinced that the framework helps. But if it does turn out to be a useful tool for musical analysis, what does it matter that its inventor may have been wicked and despicable in his prejudices and politics? Or, on the other hand, that he was denounced by the Nazis as a degenerate? You can use the tool without celebrating the man. Henry Ford was an anti-semitic white supremacist. The founder of Ikea was a Nazi sympathizer. Are we therefore to shun mass-produced cars and flat-pack furniture?

  20. #69
    What’s the analysis say about Bird’s composing?

  21. #70

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    It’s not political. It’s undoing the whitewashing that was done with Schenker’s history. You have catching up to do. Did you even watch the video or simply making assumptions? Sounds like it.
    I did not watch the video.
    I took a course in Schenkerian analysis. It sucked.
    Things like this are going to drive people to vote for Trump, (who unlike Schenker, did not die in 1930) who is a racist and is alive NOW.
    He refused to rent or sell houses to African-Americans when he was in Real Estate in NYC. When a reporter from The Voice started questioning him about it, he tried to bribe him with a deal on a condo. Are you aware of that? Probably not, because you're too busy going after a German music theorist who died in 1930!
    Don't you realize how crazy that is, and how Trump supporters are going to use thought like that to discredit anyone that doesn't support him?
    Maybe you have good intentions, but we know what the road to hell is paved with...

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by pcjazz
    Henry Martin apparently thinks that applying Schenkerian analysis to Charlie Parker’s tunes can shed new light on Bird’s compositional genius. I’m about a quarter of the way through his book and am not yet convinced that the framework helps. But if it does turn out to be a useful tool for musical analysis, what does it matter that its inventor may have been wicked and despicable in his prejudices and politics? Or, on the other hand, that he was denounced by the Nazis as a degenerate? You can use the tool without celebrating the man. Henry Ford was an anti-semitic white supremacist. The founder of Ikea was a Nazi sympathizer. Are we therefore to shun mass-produced cars and flat-pack furniture?
    Uh, that doesn’t work. Why because Schenker hated jazz, and said blacks were the lowest of lows, something beneath amphibians or something.

    You guys who excuse racism are giving Schenker a pass. And that’s what happened 80 years ago when Schenker’s name came up as some kind of genius or something. If I’m black in 1920, and I’m Schenker with throngs of racist stuff about whites, denigrating them, am I being given a pass? Hell no, I’m hung! 2020, deal with it.

  23. #72

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    I did not watch the video.
    I took a course in Schenkerian analysis. It sucked.
    Things like this are going to drive people to vote for Trump, (who unlike Schenker, did not die in 1930) who is a racist and is alive NOW.
    He refused to rent or sell houses to African-Americans when he was in Real Estate in NYC. When a reporter from The Voice started questioning him about it, he tried to bribe him with a deal on a condo. Are you aware of that? Probably not, because you're too busy going after a German music theorist who died in 1930!
    Don't you realize how crazy that is, and how Trump supporters are going to use thought like that to discredit anyone that doesn't support him?
    Maybe you have good intentions, but we know what the road to hell is paved with...
    Trumps rental records are old news. Let Trump voters go ahead and use it. All 50 of them!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    What’s the analysis say about Bird’s composing?
    As I said above, I am only part way in and not altogether convinced. But I think the idea is (at least partly) that by comparing these simplified structures you can both identify commonalities in compositional technique and also demonstrate specific devices that distinguish one instance from another. It may also be helpful in assessing contested authorship, or in showing, for example, that Bird is mostly responsible for the A section and Dizzy for the bridge of a particular head. It is also part of an argument that Bird must be thought of as a composer in the strictest sense of that term, even though many of the compositions were Improvised in performance and only notated after the fact if at all. I wouldn’t like to say more about it before reading further.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    It’s important to watch the video because Ewell has many of the quotes from Schenker which displays his racism. This is why people are worked up about Schenker. Ewell presents his case like a well horned country lawyer who slices and dices his opponent. I don’t see how one can separate him from his comments for they’re too inflammatory towards non whites. It’s pretty sickening stuff.
    On watching the lecture, I feel I'm missing a lot of ins and outs specific to American music education. It's pretty weird that Schenker is such a big thing. They do like 'things' in the states, this or that school of doing things.

    There are a lot of good reasons to make Schenker optional. It's odd that he is required for graduate music theory, but then people who do that shit are pretty sold on the idea that music theory isn't a complete waste of time, so they deserve everything they get quite honestly.

    Probably telling the students Schenker was a massive racist might be important. I think any teaching where something is handed down as the holy writ without any human context is shit teaching in general, especially in the arts and humanities... everything should be questioned.... Again technicist thinking has a tendency to make everything look as if it is 'objective' and 'scientific' whether or not it is... saying your primary theorist was a Nazi-adjacent puts a dent in that...

    I'm obviously much more interested in how these tensions and forces show up in my specific line of work, and there are certainly papers about that some of which I have read. One thing that was interesting is questioning the way 'diversity' is used as a way of deflecting the problem. I think there's a great tendency to make the right noises in education about all sorts of things without actually changing anything.

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Trumps rental records are old news. Let Trump voters go ahead and use it. All 50 of them!
    That's what we all thought in 2016. Keeping a racist from winning another term is 9 zillions times more important than some sicko racist who died in 1930!
    If you start telling people what to do, when they're not racist, you're just going to get people so annoyed, they're going to vote for Trump-just out of spite.
    The polls mean nothing, as we found out in 2016.

  27. #76

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    The fact that anyone gives a shit about this beyond a few music educators and theorists is squarely down to Fox News.

    I don't think it will 'drive people to vote for Trump' but it plays into that Culture War mentality. There's no nuance here.

    The Right see it as 'cultural marxists' undermining the West, which is probably the sort of thing Schenker believed (Nazi Germany had 'cultural bolshevism'). Academics do live in a bit of a bubble and some seem almost to play into the stereotype. The internal politics of academia are complicated too - there's just enough truth in the 'cancel culture' and 'deplatforming' thing for it to stick. Some of the nastiest infighting is between those nominally on the left.

    Neely is feeding the beast IMO, despite his good intentions. It's been all over Facebook, lots of musicians I know getting pissed off by it - many without bothering to watch it of course.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by sgcim
    That's what we all thought in 2016. Keeping a racist from winning another term is 9 zillions times more important than some sicko racist who died in 1930!
    If you start telling people what to do, when they're not racist, you're just going to get people so annoyed, they're going to vote for Trump-just out of spite.
    The polls mean nothing, as we found out in 2016.
    And that buzzard had the Russian government doing his dirty work with the stolen dnc emails and such, and still republicans voted for him. But as many voted for him because he’s a racist just like them. Unreal the crap he’s gotten away with, and denying Congressional oversight. But that’s power for you. But the same people believed he was going to win in 2018 and people were angry enough to filet the gop. But that wasn’t a presidential election. The problem is we’re dependent upon the postal service to even have an election. And whose undercutting their capacity but those in power. It’s a mess less than 2 months out.

  29. #78
    I watched the videos and the quotes were sickening. However, he didn't convince me that Schenkerian analysis is racist and should be dropped. Maybe it is, but I don't think he made much of a case to that end.

    I think the answer is in the quote he referenced with respect to Kant. We should point out the racist views of Schenker when teaching Schenkerian analysis, but much like we still read Kant and Hemmingway and listen to Wagner, I see no reason to drop Schenkerian analysis without more evidence that the theory is in and of itself racist, not the man who produced it.
    Last edited by charlieparker; 09-12-2020 at 12:30 AM.

  30. #79
    I think scgim makes a good point.

    Most of the authors of the Constitution were racist. Does that mean we should throw away the constitution? I think we have to accept that flawed men can do good things and we should judge the work of the Constitution by its own merits not by the character of its authors.

    We set a dangerous precedent by trying to cancel every person who says something racist and to Peter Jackson's point does this mean we should cancel anti-semitic Rappers?

  31. #80

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    Expanding the diversity of voices and curriculum content of music theory is not an act of cancellation. Neither would it be so to stop erasing the inconvenient historical racism of Schenker or of the founding fathers for that matter.

  32. #81

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    I think in fact those last three posts are all true and compatible. I would disagree by saying I see no good reason to teach Schenker at all; but the reasons for my saying that are more philosophical.

    I was a bit disappointed that Ewell didn’t engage in this more of a critique of the system itself, or do more to address why Schenker’s racism might have been surpressed, or talk about why his ideas are so popular within US music education (cultural hegemony no doubt). Somewhat beyond the scope of a short lecture. Maybe he does this elsewhere.

    BTW It has been said elsewhere that Ewell was ‘looking for attention’; I feel in fact that he is probably quite surprised by all this controversy. This sort of critique is as I say not that out of the mainstream these days.

    As I say, this has been made into a Culture War issue by Fox News and that will dominate the tone of the conversation.
    Last edited by christianm77; 09-12-2020 at 05:28 AM.

  33. #82

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    BTW I might add that in Adam Neely’s videos he actually suggest a YouTube channel where you can go and learn Schenkerian analysis and Ewell points out he has taught it himself. So no I don’t think it’s about ‘cancelling’. I think maybe my point above is unfair.

  34. #83

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    Cultural hegemony:


  35. #84

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    I had no idea that Fox news covered this seemingly obscure story.
    That would explain all this attention. Hard to believe there are
    that many subscribers to the Journal on Music Theory.
    Wonder what will be in their next issue.

  36. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I was a bit disappointed that Ewell didn’t engage in this more of a critique of the system itself, or do more to address why Schenker’s racism might have been surpressed, or talk about why his ideas are so popular within US music education (cultural hegemony no doubt). Somewhat beyond the scope of a short lecture. Maybe he does this elsewhere.
    I also would have appreciated more depth to the critique of the system itself.

    My knowledge of music theory is a limited knowledge species counterpoint and four part writing, and what I have learned trying to play Jazz.

    I know next to nothing about Schenkerian analysis, but I am definitely with you, in that it doesn't sound very useful, at least for musicians.

    At first glance it sounds like it is more relevant to musicologists, so, I am a bit puzzled why this would be widely taught at music schools and it what context.

    Maybe more context would help understand the viewpoints of the protagonists in this.

    Is it a musicology debate in which case maybe Ewell's arguments carry more weight for me or is this about the curriculum that musician's are taught?

  37. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Expanding the diversity of voices and curriculum content of music theory is not an act of cancellation. Neither would it be so to stop erasing the inconvenient historical racism of Schenker or of the founding fathers for that matter.
    Definitely, agree that expanding the diversity of voices is a great goal.

    On your second point, I have to confess that I am somewhat conflicted. The problem I have, is that racism, or tribalism, seems to be something universal, at least historically. Humans are only now slowly learning that this is wrong.

    Providing historical context is definitely needed, such as mentioning that Schenker and our founding fathers harbored racist attitudes that were unfortunately common in their time.

    But, it is also important to look at their works to see where and if racism permeates them and how we can fix them or if need be throw them out, see the thirteenth and fifteenth amendments to the Constitution.

    At the end of the day, these are complex topics. IMO, we should view our founding fathers more favorably than the leaders of the Confederacy. Why? Not because the founding fathers were less racist, but instead because at a later point in time many realized that slavery was wrong and the supporters of the Confederacy fought to preserve that racist system.

  38. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I also would have appreciated more depth to the critique of the system itself.

    My knowledge of music theory is a limited knowledge species counterpoint and four part writing, and what I have learned trying to play Jazz.

    I know next to nothing about Schenkerian analysis, but I am definitely with you, in that it doesn't sound very useful, at least for musicians.

    At first glance it sounds like it is more relevant to musicologists, so, I am a bit puzzled why this would be widely taught at music schools and it what context.

    Maybe more context would help understand the viewpoints of the protagonists in this.

    Is it a musicology debate in which case maybe Ewell's arguments carry more weight for me or is this about the curriculum that musician's are taught?
    I feel this too. Someone (I forget who) said above that a music theory dept was a bit sniffy about theory being taught by composers, at which point I feel there’s a saving to be made for cash strapped music departments.

  39. #88

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    But the problem is the SMT has been attempting to in their words, “diversify” since 1994! They’ve been unsuccessful. Ewell is the only black member within their fraternity. 1. Since 1995 they’ve increased their black membership from 1.4% to 2.1%. What’s wrong with that picture? Diversity isn’t working because it appears the powers that be don’t want any change, they desire to keep things the same. All white.

  40. #89

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    Re the founding fathers, they’ve all slavery on their hands. But face it. The country we reside in was stolen, taken, from Indians. And whites killed a majority of them. What small number remained was placed on reservations. There’s no whitewashing these facts, and to this day we’re still mistreating Indians. How many of them have died from Covid? No one is counting.

  41. #90

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    I've been in the streets since the 60's, for what I believed were good fights... I've enjoyed reading most of the posts...thanks. I'm old, degrees are from the 70's, If you were a jazz player back in the 60's and 70's... your friends were a diverse group of people, that were also trying to make a living. We all understood the vanilla thing.

    Schenkerian analysis was basically a re-run of a re-run. I found Schoenberg's attempt to codify music was more interesting that Rameau and Riemann. Sill a boring re-run, Schenkerian analysis was basically usuless except in academia. Take the time to go through history of composers and theorist... it takes a few years, but the picture will become easier to see.

    These posts from Megan's Blog are pretty good. Don't know if Jim Carroll is the sax player from Thundering Herd etc... and now Prof. @ George Mason Univ. ?

    From...Journal of Schenkerian Studies: Proving the Point – Megan L. Lavengood

    Comments from Jim Carroll
    "One aspect of Prof. Ewell’s deployment of the White Racial Frame that I think many people are missing is the level at which racial and cultural consciousness enters into Ewell’s critique of Schenkerian analysis. The issue is not necessarily that Schenker was a racist and his racism seeped into his work, thereby infecting all who follow. One of the major problems with Western music theory in general is really in its ontology. Music theory began as a descriptive exercise, analyzing works of European art music as in, for example, Fux’s study of Palestrina’s voice leading practices. At some point theory became prescriptive in that it became the method by which Western musicians are taught to analyze and compose music. I think it is Beach’s essay that irritates me the most when he writes of the musical “masterworks” as if there is no other way to understand what constitutes great music. The White Racial Frame fully reveals itself in its privileging of masterworks from European art music as a priori standards by which all music should be judged. Viewed from this perspective, Schenkerian analysis is absolutely connected to Schenker’s views about Others – only music that follows specific pre-determined rules associated with a pre-approved canon of music is worthy of analysis and consideration of its worth. Moving beyond the White Racial Frame does not mean we need to abandon music theory as it is and start from scratch – we simply need to accept the idea that there are many other ways to analyze music that are not necessarily grounded in common practice tonal harmony.

    Or something like that."

    Comments from Megan Lavengood

    "Ewell’s article is necessary and has had such a huge impact because his statements are true and the vast majority of music theorists purport to agree with them, yet the field as a whole continues to operate business-as-usual and hasn’t done anything to change. While of course it’s important to have change be the result of an article like this, this article’s scope is just to clearly articulate the extent of the problem. Ewell can’t change the structure of music academia on his own; it requires input from all members of the field. I don’t see it as dividing people into oppressors and oppressed; instead I see it as highlighting how everyone can and should contribute to changing the culture of music academia."

  42. #91

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    If you’re older than 65, you’re old.

    Were you at Haight Ashbury? I’m curious what your protest history is, now that you mention it. I was 5 years too young and hadn’t reached high school until 1970.

  43. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    Re the founding fathers, they’ve all slavery on their hands. But face it. The country we reside in was stolen, taken, from Indians. And whites killed a majority of them. What small number remained was placed on reservations. There’s no whitewashing these facts, and to this day we’re still mistreating Indians. How many of them have died from Covid? No one is counting.
    Doubtful, but I hope that we can move away from such a bloody conflicts and theft of land in the future. Taking the lands of Indians was wrong, but to me the question is how should we redress past wrongs. It isn't an easy question to answer, IMO.

  44. #93

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    Looking back with future eyes is a bit odd to me. Quite truthfully, what different views will look on what you think is right or ethical 100 years out?

    We have no way of knowing.

    But for that time, the founding of the US ... how did the American tribes determine boundaries and such? Typically by the same rules used the world over: stronger group "decides".

    The item that *every* native group wanted the most from the Lewis and Clark expedition "gift shop" wasn't beads for trading. It was metal axe-heads, and for a very specific purpose: war. As that group was sent to find a way across to the Pacific while working to achieve peaceful relationships with the various tribes, this was problematic for the two leaders.

    But looking around the world, how were land and boundary issues decided in most of human history? Right. Stronger group takes all.

    The US actually made some attempts at establishing treaties rather than simply taking the place. Not that the treaties were great or even totally abided by, but ...offering treaties at all was unusual. And rather "progressive" in human history.

    Slavery was widely practiced in North America by the natives, as it was essentially a world wide practice. The Aztecs were of course one of the more brutal groups with how slaves were treated, but not necessarily alone.

    According to one of the African scholars tracking slavery of Africans, more went into the middle east than Americas. Arabs tended to neuter the male slaves, and used the females as household servants or um ... concubines to be polite.

    He tracks more slaves from Africa sold to the Caribbean and South America, especially Brazil, than the US.

    And of course the vast majority of African slaves were captured by African tribes and sold to traders of various places.

    No, that wasn't a particularly innocent time by our eyes. And while most countries now technically have outlawed slavery, the penalties may be lax or non-existent. Look at the many factories, mines, and agriculture sites still utilizing forced labor in many countries in Africa and the Asian areas, alone.

    Occasionally one is busted but many, many more operate without interference from anyone.

    A young man I know has traveled in anti-slavery work as a photographer and documentarian. It's a grizzly tale he has of what he's seen.

    Occasionally they have been able to force a local official to raid a clearly slave-operated facility, but normally they had to fear for their own lives instead. This was all across SE Asia.

    And of course the Chinese government currently has hundreds of thousands if not millions of Uigher Muslims in concentration camps including factories.

    Not to say that we can't and shouldn't do better here. But looking back at the efforts to both eliminate or at least limit slavery in the US from the founding, "we" weren't altogether unusual or evil.

    I look at humans as they are. We're rather all over the place. We put some of the most despotic folks from around the world on the UN commissions on human rights.

    "We" at times succeed wonderfully, sometimes do horrific things, and most often muddle by.

    Muddling by seems in general the human thing to do.

    Sent from my SM-G960U using Tapatalk

  45. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
    If you’re older than 65, you’re old.

    Were you at Haight Ashbury? I’m curious what your protest history is, now that you mention it. I was 5 years too young and hadn’t reached high school until 1970.
    Yea I'm old, LOL. And yes I was at lots of BS that didn't find out what it was.... until years later. In the haight 66 was the big year, Vietnam, Civil rights Black Panthers in Oakland, Nat. Org> for Women in DC and of course Hunter Thompson's... Hell's Angles.... The Hells Angles house, (with out the apostrophe) across the street from Dead house. (Ashbury). The LSD thing was big, this guy Ken Kesey introduce to area... I believe he was part of the Vet's Hospital sponsored thing using legal LSD a few years earlier... lots of stories. I don't know.... but it was all over. (lots of free gigs)
    Graham went from managing a Mime Troupe to Bill Graham presents... I think his 1st show was a fund raiser for the troupe and the light shows were from the Vets Hospital LSD experiments...in the style of... all rumors. Lots of nonstop music all over... too young to know how crazy it was.

    67 was packed and also the end... 68 went across the bay to Berkeley I was totally getting into Jazz... Started playing jazz gigs, I had a Gibson 150, I think they were ES 150s. Was great and cheap. I ended up giving it to a drummer I gigged with.
    Started the never ending game of buying and fixing guitars... Anyway sorry to go on.

  46. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea I'm old, LOL. And yes I was at lots of BS that didn't find out what it was.... until years later. In the haight 66 was the big year, Vietnam, Civil rights Black Panthers in Oakland, Nat. Org> for Women in DC and of course Hunter Thompson's... Hell's Angles.... The Hells Angles house, (with out the apostrophe) across the street from Dead house. (Ashbury). The LSD thing was big, this guy Ken Kesey introduce to area... I believe he was part of the Vet's Hospital sponsored thing using legal LSD a few years earlier... lots of stories. I don't know.... but it was all over. (lots of free gigs)
    Graham went from managing a Mime Troupe to Bill Graham presents... I think his 1st show was a fund raiser for the troupe and the light shows were from the Vets Hospital LSD experiments...in the style of... all rumors. Lots of nonstop music all over... too young to know how crazy it was.

    67 was packed and also the end... 68 went across the bay to Berkeley I was totally getting into Jazz... Started playing jazz gigs, I had a Gibson 150, I think they were ES 150s. Was great and cheap. I ended up giving it to a drummer I gigged with.
    Started the never ending game of buying and fixing guitars... Anyway sorry to go on.
    No way, by all means, that’s vintage conversation. I grew up 70 miles from HA and regret not being there. But I was only a kid. So much was going on at the time. The FBI participated too, to everyone’s chagrin.

  47. #96
    I grew up six blocks from Haight Street. Spent the summers in the house in Atherton next door to Bob Weir and his parents, his band rehearsed in the back yard on the weekends. Moved to Mill Valley in ‘70. Then in ‘84 to Berkeley to this day. Fun times... maybe. The drugs were so destructive.

  48. #97
    I’ve heard Phillip Ewell offer three solutions:
    1. Split the theory semesters between traditional classical theory and alternative theory.
    2. Drop the German language requirement from the PhD program.
    3. Reveal Schenkers political views alongside his theoretical views.

    I guess Ewell is not into much jazz...he says he is interested in hip hop.

  49. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by rintincop
    I grew up six blocks from Haight Street. Spent the summers in the house in Atherton next door to Bob Weir and his parents, his band rehearsed in the back yard on the weekends. Moved to Mill Valley in ‘70. Then in ‘84 to Berkeley to this day. Fun times... maybe. The drugs were so destructive.
    So were you a rich kid also...LOL. Was that the Warlocks days. Yea the drugs can be... Personally they were also part of taking down that wall to get better view of what was going on. It's kind of like the guitar playing you or you playing the guitar. (I know... your a pianist).

    So that was part of Bob's whole adoption story thing, did you hang or know any of the GD...back then.

  50. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    So were you a rich kid also...LOL. Was that the Warlocks days. Yea the drugs can be... Personally they were also part of taking down that wall to get better view of what was going on. It's kind of like the guitar playing you or you playing the guitar. (I know... your a pianist).

    So that was part of Bob's whole adoption story thing, did you hang or know any of the GD...back then.
    I was surprised to find out that Jerry's father was a professional musician who played jazz.
    Paul Simon's father was too, and as a bandleader he used to bring Paul and his boyhood friend Al Kooper to function gigs, where they'd be 'phantom musicians' till Paul's father would make the announcement, "And now here's a little rock & roll for the kiddies", and Paul and Al would finally plug in their instruments and do their thing.

  51. #100
    Sometimes I think Surfin Bird by The Trashman sums it up best.