The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine

[christianm77]

I hate it too. Not because there's not probably some good information there, but because the people who are probably going to seek it out are the ones (like me) where it's going to set them back 5 months in unnecessary confusion.

Yup. Or several years in certain cases.

Rintin’s story just emphasises the problems that the market in education materials has caused for educators. Of course JTB is just the tip of the iceberg now.

[pcsanwald]

Rintin’s story just emphasises the problems that the market in education materials has caused for educators. Of course JTB is just the tip of the iceberg now.

I've never read Mark's book but I've heard some stuff about it and a lot of the criticism resonates with me. In my own education I feel like worrying about modes and chord scales (which I did early on) generally set me back. I didn't really start playing well until I started singing charlie christian and lester young solos, I remember playing a gig (in college) after I had started doing this, and all the other musicians asking me what exactly I'd done to change my playing so much. Not that I was playing particularly well, mind you, but it was a lot better than before I started singing those solos.

I think we are indeed responding to the marketing here, I'm sure plenty of people order this book in an attempt to learn to play jazz and it never would have occurred to them to listen to a count basie or john coltrane record first. The prevailing notion I've gleaned from musicians that don't play much jazz is that jazz requires a lot of theoretical knowledge, equivalent to advanced math, so of course you'd want a textbook for that. We all know different, but, most people here probably aren't the target audience for this book.

Plus, there's no money in telling people that all they ever need is on the records, right there waiting for them.

[christianm77]

Yeah, I mean how did Mark Levine learn right? How did Jamie Aebersold, he wrote the Omnibook. You want to be those dudes, not the dude who reads the book.

[Hugo Gainly]

Marxist critique of Chord Scale Theory

At last, a political dimension. I have bought and read - AND done on piano - the Jazz Piano Book. I have objected to the Theory book as it was clearly an opportunistic inflation of the original concept and probably driven by the publisher sidling up to Levine and muttering about a 'nice little earner' etc. Naturally, I haven't read the new one on political grounds. But I bet it's a bit pianoey.

[Hugo Gainly]

You want to be those dudes, not the dude who reads the book.

I still maintain, those dudes listened to recordings at 16rpm and tried to cop the lines. They learned lyrics in foreign languages phonetically without understanding what they were singing. Passion will have its way, intellectual compulsion always needs to be directed and any book is a port in a storm on the journey...to...whatever.... The End.

[christianm77]

I rather like that

[gnatola]

I promise not to spam messages saying how much I hate the Levine theory book haha.

Well, I don’t HATE it. It is a fact of jazz education life.

As it’s such a standard text, maybe it would be for me good to revisit, go chapter to chapter and thoroughly examine and critique it where I feel necessary, and rather than being negative suggest other avenues to look into.

There’s also probs loads of good stuff I’ve forgotten about.

I've had a few drinks this evening, so please forgive me. What makes you the authority on all things jazz? I find you people to be totally full of it. Most of what I read here is BS. I don't know why I keep returning to this site. I've never learned anything useful here. You all think you know what the jazz masters were thinking. They don't even know what they were thinking.

[sully75]

I've had a few drinks this evening, so please forgive me. What makes you the authority on all things jazz? I find you people to be totally full of it. Most of what I read here is BS. I don't know why I keep returning to this site. I've never learned anything useful here. You all think you know what the jazz masters were thinking. They don't even know what they were thinking.

he's actually a particularly excellent teacher, I imagine most people here have learned something from his lessons. At least I have, anyway.

[Litterick]

Would you though? Would you really? I have to haha.

Adorno hated jazz of course; however this paper is actually quite interesting, if this is your sort of thing. It’s a little deeper than just talking about CST and he makes some really good general points, not least how critical pedagogy/theory types get completely the wrong end of the stick when it comes to the music. I like Louth, he gets jazz.

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/...08.2012.657163

Thank you. It has been four years since I completed my PhD (architectural history) and I find I am out of practice in reading academic papers; but other people’s disciplines are more interesting than one’s own. I throughly support anyone who is critical of critical theory; the only Frankfurter I liked was Habermas.

[christianm77]

I don’t think he’s critical of critical theory - in fact he uses it; it’s more that he points out that music education academics assume jazz is all praxis and no aesthetic. Which is quite rude actually.

[christianm77]

I've had a few drinks this evening, so please forgive me. What makes you the authority on all things jazz?

Good question! No really, go to the source. Don’t take this schlub’s word for it.

Ive always put my cards on the table. If you listen to my playing and find it laughable you can move on.

What I can say for my part is: I know what I think and I have reasons for thinking it that I try to explain so that others can follow my train of thought. Sometimes I think people are wrong on a subject and I try to explain my reasons for thinking that too

You all think you know what the jazz masters were thinking. They don't even know what they were thinking.

Having had the opportunity to learn with a few actual jazz masters I can say that quite a few of them know exactly what they are thinking, have highly systemised their knowledge. it has given me a little of an idea of how some of them seem to think.

I try to pass on what I learned from them. What I’m actually more interested in is how they learned...

(And some times I waste my time talking shit online, I DO spend too much time on this forum, and can understand if people are getting sick of the sight of me.)

[Hugo Gainly]

(sound of tumbleweed)

[Hugo Gainly]

No, no!! Joking! I enjoy your knowledge and humour. Keep it up. You might think about the less often aspect, but even that's OK too really.

[christianm77]

saying that’ll probably just make me post MORE out of spite.

[Reg]

So yea... personally most books by musicians are great. It's always great to get their perspectives about musicianship and understandings of what makes the music work etc...I love the stuff.

But if you can't really cover, by that I'm implying you haven't developed your musicianship, your playing to the level that you can perform jazz, like in real time, live.... just seems ??? I mean at some point in your studies, your going to get it, you'll understand how notes work and all the possibilities etc... Like Mark, I studied with herb P. his teachings were just guidelines, possibilities of what to do. Voicing rules, Non-diatonic voicings above Diatonic Bass, (including triad applications). His Sound Techniques.... how to arrange etc... Then the 29 line writing obvious rules... and Duke goodies. And yea... CST... the possible interrelationships between chords and scales with functioning relation to a tonal center... and of course basic Functional Maj/Min harmony. At some point the possibilities become the obvious...

And then you'll actually be able to use these guidelines.... expand and develop them to create your voice and hear and understand other voices... Anyway, sometimes there needs to be a goal, an end result, not just memic or copy etc... I know and have worked with many musicians who have know idea what I was just talking about... but can cover, they can play well, great etc... They have there technical skills together....

Much of the material in Marks book isn't needed to become a great player. But if part of your goal or end result is to be able to pop out an arrangement or new composition in an hour or two... his book will help.

Hell, if one can just understand the Glossary in the front, the Terms, Lingo, Musicians nicknames... you'll be a better musician....

[rpjazzguitar]

Having had the opportunity to learn with a few actual jazz masters I can say that quite a few of them know exactly what they are thinking, have highly systemised their knowledge. it has given me a little of an idea of how some of them seem to think.
.)

I've asked a few masters that question, about specific passages. In every case, they couldn't answer it. They were just blowing. OTOH, they were all perfectly capable of playing a solo based entirely on a specific scale or rule. So, for example, they could demonstrate an alt scale against a V7, to take one simple example. But, if you asked them what they played over a V7 during a solo they just completed, they couldn't answer the question.

I'm no master, but that's exactly what would happen if a novice asked me. I can demonstrate a particular application, but I don't think that way when I solo.

And, if you asked them what they practiced to get to their skill level, there was nothing remotely like a simple answer.

I can't answer that question about my own playing and my path has been much simple and limited than a master.

[JohnoL]

I got the book a long time ago, before the turn of the century and I have no regrets.

I think it was the first time I had seen a list of recommended jazz tunes.

[christianm77]

I've asked a few masters that question, about specific passages. In every case, they couldn't answer it. They were just blowing. OTOH, they were all perfectly capable of playing a solo based entirely on a specific scale or rule. So, for example, they could demonstrate an alt scale against a V7, to take one simple example. But, if you asked them what they played over a V7 during a solo they just completed, they couldn't answer the question.

I'm no master, but that's exactly what would happen if a novice asked me. I can demonstrate a particular application, but I don't think that way when I solo.

And, if you asked them what they practiced to get to their skill level, there was nothing remotely like a simple answer.

I can't answer that question about my own playing and my path has been much simple and limited than a master.

Whoops! Rereading what I posted I can see that you may have thought I was making the contrary point - that wasn't my intention.

It is certainly true that quite a few jazz masters have systematised that knowledge. The obvious example is of course Barry Harris. Barry will TELL you, step by step, how to construct a bop line from raw materials. Of course on a gig, he won't be thinking any of this because he is just playing.

BH is an example of someone whose teaching practice might actually resemble the way he learned, because he was teaching almost from day 1 AFAIK. Needless to say not everyone does this.

It's a fairly fundamental and obvious expression of being able to play an instrument that you go from:
Conscious practice --> unconscious mastery

Rather than a linear process this takes place again and again as a cycle as we learn over the years. We start with mastering strumming patterns and open position scales and go on to; who knows? Jazz voicings? Bop lines? Chord scale patterns? eventually more and more abstract ideas.

Good teachers are those that can break down the conscious bits and explain them to the student and map out a course of study. They also know their limits.

What can't be stated enough, and I'll say it again in case anyone thinks I was saying something else: the process of playing music should be unconscious.

Which is to say it has a great many processes that have been internalised to the point of mastery.

Hope that means we don't have to talk past each other for 200 posts again lol.

[Reg]

Hey RP... yea whatever works seems to be the obvious answer. We've play together.... casually. But I tend to enjoy talking at gigs. I have no problem breaking down music in between tunes and even during. Like I posted above if you at least understand Mark's Glossary of terms... it's simple and easy to verbally make analysis and head arrangements while performing. It's funny how there are terms that actually imply what would take 20 mins to explain using non musical terms.

The whole unconscious thing.... well maybe during the 60's, maybe even into the 70's... and that was really just the drugs. It's just a job, work... I'd like to think my driver is conscious, maybe even my doctor or nurse. Just because you understand what your doing.... doesn't mean your in the zone, or some magical state.

I think broturtel already has what he needs.... the thread is off and running. Isn't this the point.

[christianm77]

Hey RP... yea whatever works seems to be the obvious answer. We've play together.... casually. But I tend to enjoy talking at gigs. I have no problem breaking down music in between tunes and even during. Like I posted above if you at least understand Mark's Glossary of terms... it's simple and easy to verbally make analysis and head arrangements while performing. It's funny how there are terms that actually imply what would take 20 mins to explain using non musical terms.

The glossary is another bit I like.

The whole unconscious thing.... well maybe during the 60's, maybe even into the 70's... and that was really just the drugs. It's just a job, work... I'd like to think my driver is conscious, maybe even my doctor or nurse. Just because you understand what your doing.... doesn't mean your in the zone, or some magical state.

I think broturtel already has what he needs.... the thread is off and running. Isn't this the point.

I would hope so!

Yeah the unconscious/conscious thing... It's not like you aren't aware of what's going on - it's just - you are out of the way? It's hard to describe.

What I mean is that the low level processes of the music making - technique, note choices, reading pitches off the page etc - are unconscious, in the same way as using the clutch to change gear in a manual gearbox car is unconscious (Americans, this does happen.)

You aren't literally unconscious, although I did almost pass out playing a gig once.

[Reg]

LOL... yea I've been out there on gigs also. So I was a little different, went from classical to Jazz, then in the later 60's... the SF thing just happened. So I got into the rock jam and funk thing... anyway, definitely been out of body at gigs.
But the jazz or being unconscious and in the moment thing....

So the better the musicians, the easier it is to relax, but the level of interaction also reaches higher levels of organization. The more you know and can hear... consciously, the easier it is to be ahead. By that I mean you know where the music is going, or are at least aware of most possibilities and because you've been there and personally I understand what's going on musically, the use of musical terms thing etc... So maybe that is your unconscious feeling. Being able to be ahead and behind the moment from being pre-aware of what's being performed. Or you can just be performing written out music, or rehearsed music and finally get it right or to a level where it LOCKs in. I don't know, I remember playing HS dances in bands.... I was still in elementary school, and the music would lock some times, and I would be thinking... hey we're finally getting something right.

I mean... playing gigs, part of the fun is the music within the music.... having multiple layers going on so everyone has something etc...

I've worked in way too many rhythm sections... which means I'm aware of how different players approach and perform music, different tunes. there are just only so many melodies and chord patterns. Kind of like a simple... well maybe complex matrix. There are just only so many plug and plays. The rest is just ornamentation or camouflage. There is always a tonal reference.... and then relationships with that tonal reference... yada yada.

Yea I'm boring myself....

[broturtel]

Is there any way that I can get this thread taken down (deleted) by a moderator? It's just gotten way too off topic. I appreciate everyone's input though! Thanks a lot guys. I'm enjoying the book thoroughly.

[christianm77]

LOL... yea I've been out there on gigs also. So I was a little different, went from classical to Jazz, then in the later 60's... the SF thing just happened. So I got into the rock jam and funk thing... anyway, definitely been out of body at gigs.
But the jazz or being unconscious and in the moment thing....

So the better the musicians, the easier it is to relax, but the level of interaction also reaches higher levels of organization. The more you know and can hear... consciously, the easier it is to be ahead. By that I mean you know where the music is going, or are at least aware of most possibilities and because you've been there and personally I understand what's going on musically, the use of musical terms thing etc... So maybe that is your unconscious feeling. Being able to be ahead and behind the moment from being pre-aware of what's being performed. Or you can just be performing written out music, or rehearsed music and finally get it right or to a level where it LOCKs in. I don't know, I remember playing HS dances in bands.... I was still in elementary school, and the music would lock some times, and I would be thinking... hey we're finally getting something right.

I mean... playing gigs, part of the fun is the music within the music.... having multiple layers going on so everyone has something etc...

I've worked in way too many rhythm sections... which means I'm aware of how different players approach and perform music, different tunes. there are just only so many melodies and chord patterns. Kind of like a simple... well maybe complex matrix. There are just only so many plug and plays. The rest is just ornamentation or camouflage. There is always a tonal reference.... and then relationships with that tonal reference... yada yada.

Yea I'm boring myself....

No, I think that's a good way of putting it. It's actually really hard to put into words (and the tendency is to use a lot of words in the attempt, I cut out a few hundred words out of my post when I realised I wasn't saying anything haha), but we all sort of recognise it?

I think we do anyway....

Anyway, I've been reading William Blake today (I know, avoiding work) and seems to me like he has a lot to say on the subject of Jazz education.

It's certainly more fun than reading critical theory papers about bullshit no-one cares about.

[christianm77]

Is there any way that I can get this thread taken down (deleted) by a moderator? It's just gotten way too off topic. I appreciate everyone's input though! Thanks a lot guys. I'm enjoying the book thoroughly.

Hey, no fair! You don't get to CONTROL what people choose to say, the course of your threads. I know it's frustrating (I've got a bit pissy in the same situation) in the moment if you have something in mind, but that's the way it is. On reflection you might find something someone said helpful later on when you aren't thinking specifically about the topic at hand.

And that's also a lesson in how to approach for improvised music, BTW, things that can piss you off in the moment end up being your favourite bits on recordings you make, and so on.

(I'm really going to have to get rintin's full account of his time with Mark Levine when he's less pissed off with me haha. That's something I've taken away from this thread...)

[grahambop]

Is there any way that I can get this thread taken down (deleted) by a moderator? It's just gotten way too off topic. I appreciate everyone's input though! Thanks a lot guys. I'm enjoying the book thoroughly.

Starting a thread in the Theory section is at your own risk.