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I just read a posting in another forum that spoke of one of my fave guitarists for rock - Yngwie Manlmsteen - and his love for jazz melodic minor scales. Has anyone heard Yngwie use this scale? If so on what record or track or whatever? Iam a huge fan of different styles of music and though this is a jazz forum I know that there are a few other people out there who like Vai, Van Halen & Zakk Wylde. So, whoever you are could you please post an answer to my question?
Cheers to all
EVH
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01-25-2010 10:44 PM
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I don't think it's any great secret that a lot of players here look on Yngwie with a little disdain. I don't think it's a matter of technique - I mean come on, that guy just simply shreds. Definitely a master of the fretboard. I think it just comes down to taste. Let's face it, Yngwie's style is not exactly subtle.
I saw the guy back in '86 or so somewhere in the East Bay. He was one of about 10 acts in some big Monsters of Rock thing I caught in my early 20s. I remember being impressed by his technique, but I also remember thinking, what's the point of playing so damn fast that nobody can hear the individual notes you're playing? I enjoyed Metallica and the Scorpions that evening a lot more. (He wasn't nearly as pathetic as Ratt was, though).
Anyway, as for melodic minor, yes I'm quite sure he uses it all the time. I would venture to say that Yngwie probably has every scale known to mankind pretty well under his fingers. Not being all that familiar with his songs though, I can't really say which. I do know he's got a method book out on the market, so perhaps he talks about such things there.
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I hadn't thought of it before, but couldn't transcribed solos by Mr Malmsteen make suitable finger strengthening exercises, in the same vein as the Kreutzer Etudes? Or how about the original shredder, Paganini?
Last edited by BigDaddyLoveHandles; 01-26-2010 at 11:13 AM.
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i don't see why not BDLH--his technique is excellent.
to the OP, i'd be surprised if yngwie didn't use melodic "jazz" minor somewhere. it's a common go to scale over a m/maj7 chord...
there's nothing inherently "jazz" about melodic minor-- but in classical music, the terminology of melodic minor is used only ascending-- descending it's supposed to be a natural minor. So the "jazz" minor distinction comes from the way jazz players used it--same ascending and descending. I'm sure malmsteen has used both.
so i guess the overall point is here-- don't necessarily look for the segments of malmsteen's usage to sound jazzy--these scales can be applied in a lot of contexts.Last edited by mr. beaumont; 01-26-2010 at 11:19 AM.
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He has been touted as the Paganini of guitar before, and technique wise, I think that fits. His technique is probably better than most anyone else in that genre. it is incredibly clean, fast and precise. I have seen him live on the G3 tour (03/04?), and though I really admire his athleticism on the fretboard, his music doesn't do much for me. I do have one of his discs.
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
I hear lots of melodic and harmonic minor in his playing, and plenty of minor arpeggios. His bag is much more classical, and I hear no jazz from him. During his set on G3, he played and sang a blues tune. I was frankly blown away by both his ability to sing and play a blues so convincingly when he is know exclusively as a shredder. Mr. Malmsteen is quite a character.
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02-20-2010, 02:00 PM #6CC323 Guest
Malmsteen seems to have very solid technique and a pretty good overall ear. His own music is a little over the top sometimes, some might accuse him of 80's cliche's, etc., but I think that Kenny Werner's comments on ego getting in the way of creativity would really apply in his case. I'm not trying to call him arrogant, but if he didn't seem to have a need to be 'that fast player', I think his music would reach a lot more people. Just my $.02.
Chris
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My favorite song by him, his singing I'm actually very fond of.
Anyways, as others have mentioned he uses all sorts of scales all the time. He's the man technically, but the inspirational value of his music I personally wouldn't rate too high.
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02-25-2010, 10:58 PM #8Baltar Hornbeek Guest
big group jazzy huggie for EVH
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re Malmsteen...
"much more classical" -- This is the style they call "neo-classical" -- which consists mostly of i - iv - V triads in A minor arpeggiated at top speed. In emulating Paganini, Malmsteen forgot to actually study Paganini's music. Studying the Caprices might have been a good move before inventing the hype. As it is, to call his style "classical" is sort of a joke, no? However, among shredders the term "neo-classical" is here to stay, and seems to mean what Malmsteen does, however many other meanings it may have had in the past. Originally Posted by derek
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Yngwie does use the harmonic minor scale in almost everything he does, I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he threw in a major 6 every once in a while. Originally Posted by EVH
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its too bad that people are impressed with this stuff, or at least past their teen years. yes. he is a capable electric guitar player. so what?
if all we want to see is guitar gymnastics then we can watch him as well as any number of others. there is very limited musical merit to what he does.
adult music fans - lets seek deeper things. lets seek higher things.
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Why is that a bad thing? Originally Posted by fumblefingers
I think what people like about his music is the energy, the aggression, and - o course - those high speed solos.
No need to complain about it. Just a different style (and it is good to know lots of different styles). If my technique was more developed, I would try to play like Yngwie, just to get to know another way of playing guitar. Of course. I wouldn't do it that much (I prefer other aspects), but I'd try.
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From my teenage days of guitar playing (copying quite a few Yngve solos) I'm pretty sure that harmonic minor scale was the only scale he ever played Originally Posted by monkeysarefunny
I stopped listening to him soon after the first record, tho, so I could be wrong on his later work.
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Have you guys ever tryed to learn any yngwie or any other shredders lines. I have been teaching a couple of kids lately who like all the shreddy stuff a lot of yngwie, Jason becker, Paul Gilbert, etc.. and I find they actualy have some great ideas which you can actualy use over jazz, especialy Jason Becker but yngwie has a lot of lines which can work over a b9. Don't be so quick to dismiss these players, you might not like what they play but you cannot deny they are excelent players. Give it a try it might give you some fresh ideas.
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My sister can type really fast, I mean really, really fast. I once made a video of her fingers flying all over the keyboard and took it to school. A friend said "Wow, too bad she's not into metal, she can really shred"
I told her this and she said at her office she does her fair share of shredding, but usually only on fridays.....
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When talking about Yngwie Malmsteen you can't say "jazz melodic minor scales", since his influences come from rock and classical music and NEVER from jazz. Over the years, in many interviews I read, he says he hates using the pentatonic scale since it has a too rock or rock'n'roll sound. He likes to play some blues also and for the rest he uses the diatonic, harmonic minor, melodic minor and diminished scales to sound classical. You'll never hear Yngwie sound jazzy, though I'm sure he would learn jazz pretty quickly if he ever wanted since in his book he explains how he combines and mixes scales. He ain't the kind of metal guitarrist that sticks on the same scale and key in one solo, he changes them. Originally Posted by EVH
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The fact that this is a jazz site doesn't mean people have to loose respect for other musicians. Here the matter was to answer a question about the possibility that he might play jazz with the melodic minor scale and you brought it all in a way to critizise him and throw all your hatred you feel for him.
I'm not a fan of his since many years ago but I'd like some respect for the guitarrist that led me how to play guitar in my first years. In my age there are no more guitar idols so I don't need to visit his site to worship him, but I tell you again: there's more music than jazz. I play the guitar and the piano, and with them I play lots of styles. If I like a movie soundtrack I play it, if I like a blues song I play it, If I like a pop song I also play, and if I like a classical piece I play it too and if it's a jazz tune I'll do what I can...and of all this I play it seriously because that's what I like to play.
For me this is it with this matter.
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For the record, I think Yngwie is one the most influential guitarists EVER!!!
He really pushed the barrier for what you're able to do on a guitar. His vibrato is right on, his mastery of many techniques... Remember, before him most players (despite of genre) relied on a few mastered techniques. Yngwie took guitar technique to a whole new level, because he mastered many, and is able to combine them in a fluent way. Literally, he took metal/rock guitar to a whole new level. I think his main scales are phrygian dominant, harmonic minor, and diminished scales. Some of his chord progressions are derived from the melodic minor, but I can't think of any tunes on the fly!
I'm not going into the discussion of these styles are a niche for teenagers, bad music, etc. I think such a statement is childish. Period. I refuse to be a jazz snob.
There's something in all styles of music. If you don't feel it, so what? Someone else does. Mind you that most people in the general public despise jazz music! Jazz is really the niche, but that does not make us an elite, or a group of people "who can hear true music that the rest can't". Heck, sometimes I think jazzers should be reminded that's it's people we play for, and not ourselves or our bandmates.
With all that said I think that Yngwie - despite his musical skills - has only written 3 good compositions, the rest are mere repetitions. Listen to "Black Star", "Far Beyond the Sun", and "Icarus' Dream Suite Opus 4". These compositions are great displays of his skills. Unfortunately, I think he peaked with his debut solo album, "Rising Force". The 3 compositions can be found there.
If you really want to listen to melodic minor scales, technique, great compositions from a shredder who's studied composition, listen to George Bellas. He's a virtuoso guitarist, and a master composer. Check out his album "Venomous Fingers". It's a neoclassical rock album, but with many modern approaches, such as (very) odd time signatures, melodic minor scales, jazz harmony, and there are both rock-oriented and classical compositions on it.
George has also cited Ted Greene and his books as master influences for him!
I picked up my picking technique from studying George Bellas. Seeing playing so fast, so smooth, so effortless... I had to learn it. He uses a variation of economy picking, but you're not bound by the "rules" about arranging even notes on the strings. His approch is simple: playing on a single string --> alternate pick! Change strings --> sweep pick! So if you're ascending strings you sweep pick with a downstroke - no matter how many strings - and if you descend you sweep pick with an up stroke. Really, this is the most intuitive and simple system! He simply follows the direction he's going! You take so much work out of your right hand!
That was a side note. The point is that you can learn many things from other people no matter their style.Last edited by C.A.JO.; 04-06-2010 at 02:18 AM.
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It's all very well typing fast as long as what you do type is worth reading..LG.. Originally Posted by princeplanet
My sister can type really fast, I mean really, really fast. I once made a video of her fingers flying all over the keyboard and took it to school. A friend said "Wow, too bad she's not into metal, she can really shred" I told her this and she said at her office she does her fair share of shredding, but usually only on fridays.....
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Well, let's put it this way: I do think that much jazz is more complex and harder to play than even classical music. I don't think that other music is therefore unserious or inferior music.
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Music is music.
Compared to human speech: all humans speak, but we speak different languages. Is any language superior? No. Are some languages more difficult? Well, doesn't that depend on the person?
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Are some languages more difficult? Well, doesn't that depend on the person?
No, it doesn't actually.
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I dig the comparison. Rather than a different language, I would suggest that some topics of discussion are more challenging and complex than others, requiring a greater knowledge of the subject. Doesn't mean they are superior by any means, just different. Originally Posted by C.A.JO.
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Yngwie's instructional video may discuss this...it is worth a try. Good luck. Sorry you have to read through so many posts of people trying to declare they are the sum of all good taste.
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I've never heard YJM use melodic minor scales in his guitar playing, but I'm sure he has dabbled!
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