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I guess it's really no surprise that there are so many jokes about how dumb guitarists are. But given all the free knowledge and repertoire available nowadays,why does this still hold true?
Beyond theory, repertoire always is weak, reading skills, harmony,etc.
This is especially true of many non Jazz musicians, like modern Pop guitarists. They can hardly play anything above a major 7 or even know their fretboard notes.
I also recognize just because one is good at harmony you must also juggle melody and rhythm equally to play well.
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04-07-2020 10:20 PM
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The most ignorant? Nope.
One word: vocalists.
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Guilty as charged.
I've still got so much to learn.
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I would venture many here are more aware of harmony since Jazz requires some knowledge or at least being able to near the changes and form of the song.
Something I find sadly quite lacking in many guitarists of other genres of music.
I will say there are exceptions but not very many unfortunately!
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I'm going to defend pop guitarists. I don't see them as ignorant at all.
A good pop guitarist has a lot of vocabulary. The pop player is likely to know a whole bunch of famous solos, rhythm parts, full songs, ways to get different well-known sounds, and more. They're likely to have a carefully constructed pedal board and be able to call up a wide range of sounds, instantly. They can sound "like the record", for a lot of records.
They probably can hear pop harmony and know immediately what the chords are. Their time is likely to be good, at least for the styles they play. They are likely to be able to play quality solos, within the genre. Many can sing, including singing harmony.
Many are aware that appearance is part of performance and they can dress and act the part.
What are they unlikely to do? Read single notes. Why bother in their world? A lot of their stuff actually might be better communicated with tab, because it's not just the notes, it's also the sound. A lot of the time there are guitar tricks involved which can be clearer from tab (and I say that as somebody who is a pretty good reader of standard notation). They might struggle to solo over complicated harmony, but they don't play that stuff anyway. They probably don't have much fluency in jazz (or classical or flamenco or anything else they don't work on), but the same can be said of any musician who works mostly within a style.
Now, for a word about jazz players.
In a jazz band, the horn players, pianist and bassist are very likely to be better readers than the guitar player. Repertoire and fluency depend on the players. Guitarists may hold their own there. I suspect, but it's based on a small sample, that horn players have more familiarity with important historical jazz recordings, but that's because more of them featured horns than guitars. Same argument for piano.
But, on the other hand, a lot of the time guitar charts are harder to read than any chart in the big band except for piano. Horns and bass play one note at a time. They focus on the upper left corner of page one and their eyes follow the staff. That's not the same for the guitar. If the guitarist is reading chord symbols, he has to move his eyes up and down to see the hits. If the hits are written out on staffs, he's got to decipher all that ink, on the fly. Since the guitarist doesn't play syncopated single notes as often as a horn, he gets less practice with that skill. The horns, and sometimes the bass, play the line in front of them and that's enough. The guitarist stares at slash marks and has to invent a part, on the fly, that stays out of the pianist's way, while remaining audible, propulsive and, somehow, helpful. A lot of the charts I see have hits which aren't even written in on the guitarist's chart, so the guitarist has to figure them out and maybe write them in, all while the rehearsal or gig progesses.
The pianist, to give credit where it's due, has to do everything the guitarist has to do, plus, he has a left hand. It's actually amazing how well they do.
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Pianists ,bassist and horn players all for the most part are way better educated musicians than at least 95% guitarists I've ever met or heard.
Name any song written on Guitar sans Antonio Carlos Jobim, that has great harmony in it.
Even Brian Wilson and Paul McCartney used the piano to write their better songs like "In My Room" "Good Vibrations", "The Long and Winding Road", "Fool on the Hill" I'm great with 4 chord rock or Pop but one should also understand harmony and being able to play in more than one key.
I just think as guitarists we should be equally as proficient in music.And at least be able to read a basic chart well.
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I once took charge of a medium-sized Big Band of quite a high standard. Six guitar players asked me to let them join. Obviously that was too many, so we held auditions. Not one of them knew how to play a C Major scale. Not one. Three of them complained that I was being unfair, as "jazz players don't play the major scale". And, of course, not one of them could read standard notation. They wanted tabs for everything. Needless to say we lived without a guitar player.
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“Pop guitarist” covers a wide gamut from singer songwriters who might strum basic but functional accompaniments to session players who could probably also play jazz to a high level.
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I find that in general, most guitarists tend to be mostly self taught and the least equipped to function with other musicians that had some public school or beyond music training.
This doesn't keep them from having a satisfying experience with music due to the guitar's major role in music for soooo long. Four chords cover a lot of ground, and was good enough for Hank Williams. Ignorance can be bliss, and some folks become clever when faced with limits.
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
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I'm not even going to read this thread...
(Jk)Last edited by arielcee; 04-08-2020 at 06:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
I have a few maxims, and this is one of them:
"You are your repertoire." What you do, or can do, delimits your practicable scope at any given time. Also: "You are what you practice." And whatever you've practiced last is at the top of the pile. Practice digging deeper in the pile to avoid staleness.
Reading is important, and I sure wish I was better at it, but it is essential to be able to leave the dots behind, and let the music out.
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Originally Posted by jads57
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What is great harmony?
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by TOMMO
complex harmony - as in complex chords? Or complex voice leading? Unusual progressions? Predictable, classic progressions? Bassline movement? Modulations? Modal interchange?
i think someone who hasn’t checked out much rock/pop stuff or interrogated their basic assumptions would say this. Harmony has changed stylistically, but Tin Pan Alley has its own cliches.
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Here’s some things to be getting on with:
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Originally Posted by christianm77
OK, OK - I get it!
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there was a 90s vogue for striking chord progressions in alt/indie rock...
Otatonic whole half scale in a rock song? Well why not.
So is this great harmony? Maybe not in the Cole Porter sense. But what these song writers do is use harmony to create striking effects that are important for their music.
And while the guitar voicings might be simple (sometimes) the arrangements have to be taken in totality.... as Beato will tell you, Cobain’s melody is on the upper extensions as much as any Jobim song...
Furthermore, some musicians did this very much aware of the theory (Radiohead, Jeff Buckley) and others totally did it by ear... doesn’t matter.
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Do I detect a slight tone of snobbery here?
Anyway, I concur that reading provides a useful discipline and can open many doors though, as a self-taught-by-ear player, I still sit bemused while I watch a conservatory-trained musician writing down a phrase I'm calling out before he/she can play it!
These days with a looper and an octave pedal, a guitarist has a lot of scope for composing, by the way.
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Or this:
I really need to listen to Modern Life is Rubbish again. It actually came with the chord symbols in the lyrics sheet so you could strum along haha.
i was a good enough musician back then to look at the progressions and go ‘lol....wut?’... (Blur got this from Madness and Cardiacs as far as I know. Cardiacs also influenced Radiohead and ... err... Napalm Death.)
This is what Cardiacs sound like; the missing link between punk, Messiaen, circus music and early Genesis. Make sure you listen to the whole thing. It’s mind blowing.
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Originally Posted by jads57
Cheers
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I love the lame defense of ignorance guitar-owners always revert to. It's even funnier on a "jazz" board.
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Originally Posted by Jazzism
Metheny as well, and guitar music was a big influence on him.... But yeah I figured the OP wasn’t really talking about jazz guitarists.
i thought there was a case to be made for music by big famous guitar bands that real people actually listened to coming up with some very cool and creative harmony out of the instrument.
Transcriber wanted
Today, 04:35 PM in Improvisation