The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    I am reading a excellent book about Kind of Blue by Ashley Khan and there is a quote about when Sonny Stitt played live with Miles. Davis is quoted as saying " When Sonny was here he would play Dminor7 instead of D minor on So What, he would always f%%k up on that tune". I understand this is probably related to Sonny not approaching the tune in the modal way Miles wanted but can someone explain in more detail what Miles meant by this comment?

    I felt this was a theory question but if not please move

    Thanks!

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  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Babaluma
    I am reading a excellent book about Kind of Blue by Ashley Khan and there is a quote about when Sonny Stitt played live with Miles. Davis is quoted as saying " When Sonny was here he would play Dminor7 instead of D minor on So What, he would always f%%k up on that tune". I understand this is probably related to Sonny not approaching the tune in the modal way Miles wanted but can someone explain in more detail what Miles meant by this comment?

    I felt this was a theory question but if not please move

    Thanks!
    Now that IS interesting because I would have thought it was the other way around. That said Miles uses both C and C# over D minor in his solo.

  4. #3

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    Well you can hear him here, personally I quite enjoy Sonny’s solo. I assume Miles didn’t like his boppish approach, he sneaks a few ii-Vs into it, maybe some of the minor lines are not Dorian, so what!


  5. #4

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    I just listened to it (Miles and Sonny, live 1960, Paris).

    One can only guess...

    Harmonically, a tonal center is a "cloud of possibilities". Within the context of a song progression, the shape of that cloud varies.

    Miles is exploring a bit outside the cloud - he plays "C" but he's avoiding the Dm7 sound, sounding more angular, defining his harmony from the outside of the cloud pointing into the cloud rather than from the inside pointing out of the cloud, so to speak.

    Sonny is exploring the cloud harmonies pointing mostly from within the cloud to other parts of the cloud, or pointing sometimes outward, not so much pointing from outside into it... that's what I think Miles is hearing and expressing irritation or frustration about - he doesn't want Sonny to think, "So what can I do from within this cloud?", he wants him to think, "So what can I do from outside this cloud?"

  6. #5

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    Haha, well, Miles did actually say on many occasions that the whole Kind of Blue album was a failed experiment- he didn't feel they achieved what he wanted them to. Presumably he may have thought Cannonball's playing was also too boppish? Stitt on this cut probably sounds less boppish than Cannon's solo on the album. Stitt even throws in some Coltranish flourishes...

  7. #6

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    Look, listening to the Stitt solo, I got to say, did Kahn get his quote backwards?

    stitt plays a lot of classic bebop vocab here, moving 7th stuff, going in and out of the m triad and m6 sound using dim7 arps. He does use some modal ideas, But he’s (unsurprisingly) pretty bop, and bop likes the 6th.

    otoh Miles is playing a lot of blues oriented phrases with the b7

  8. #7

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    A bit of googling came up with this from Jimmy Heath’s autobiography, it might help:

    Miles Davis critique of Sonny Stitt question-ab4be8ef-1173-4046-a87d-c327723b93eb-jpg

  9. #8

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    Except, as Christian pointed out, the white keys also included C#, Ab and Bb... sorry to nitpick. But it would be really quite difficult to play over 24 bars of Dm11 without some variation.

    And, as you said, so what in any case :-)

  10. #9

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    I think the white keys thing is a bit of a red herring, pretty sure Miles and Trane played other passing notes too. Stitt certainly played lots of chromatic notes in that solo. What I think Jimmy Heath meant is that Stitt just thinks of it as a Dm chord and so plays boppy lines in Dm. But Miles wanted to explore all the various tonal structures available inside the Dm (or Dorian mode), as different sounds in their own right (what Jimmy Heath calls the other chords available over Dm). For example it often sounds to me as if Miles and Trane lean on the G triad a lot in their solos on So What, it creates that kind of ambivalent 4ths sound. I don’t think Stitt would do that.

    Anyway that’s my take on it, could be wrong!

  11. #10

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    Well, I admit to cheating a bit. There's this. I didn't check all the Ebm notes... but I might. And I only checked Miles' solo, not all the others. But, yes, I'm sure the others did a lot more. Stitt's not on this one, of course.

    The triads thing is prevalent - F and G which, as you say, gives the 4ths sound nicely.


  12. #11

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    I've just listened carefully to the Stitt solo again. Actually, I quite like it. I don't think it's contrary to the spirit of the tune at all. I'd say maybe a bit of sour grapes from Miles!

    But it's his tune (or Bill Evans) so...

  13. #12

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    In defense to both Miles and Sonny, if you want creative improvisations . . . you play what you hear. I don't see Miles' issue here but who knows ,really, what he was thinking in regards to his words? Perhaps this is more of an issue for musicologists/theorists rather than performing musicians. Love the recording. Good playing . . . Marinero

  14. #13

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    I don't get the impression that Miles Davis bought into everything said by Miles Davis.

  15. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    I just listened to it (Miles and Sonny, live 1960, Paris).

    One can only guess...

    Harmonically, a tonal center is a "cloud of possibilities". Within the context of a song progression, the shape of that cloud varies.

    Miles is exploring a bit outside the cloud - he plays "C" but he's avoiding the Dm7 sound, sounding more angular, defining his harmony from the outside of the cloud pointing into the cloud rather than from the inside pointing out of the cloud, so to speak.

    Sonny is exploring the cloud harmonies pointing mostly from within the cloud to other parts of the cloud, or pointing sometimes outward, not so much pointing from outside into it... that's what I think Miles is hearing and expressing irritation or frustration about - he doesn't want Sonny to think, "So what can I do from within this cloud?", he wants him to think, "So what can I do from outside this cloud?"
    This is a nice way of putting it, I enjoyed this explanation.

  16. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    A bit of googling came up with this from Jimmy Heath’s autobiography, it might help:

    Miles Davis critique of Sonny Stitt question-ab4be8ef-1173-4046-a87d-c327723b93eb-jpg
    Oh I will have to get that, sounds like an interesting book. Thanks for finding.

  17. #16

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    OK I'll buy that. One thing I notice is Stitt is finishing his phrases quite squarely on the chord.

  18. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Well you can hear him here, personally I quite enjoy Sonny’s solo. I assume Miles didn’t like his boppish approach, he sneaks a few ii-Vs into it, maybe some of the minor lines are not Dorian, so what!

    Wow this is pretty cooking! I like Stitt's solo but hearing both side by side I can maybe understand a bit more what Miles was talking about. Also as someone noted sounds similar approach to Cannonball. Adderley is definitely the bluesiest on the original studio version and Stitt sounds more like that vibe.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    OK I'll buy that. One thing I notice is Stitt is finishing his phrases quite squarely on the chord.
    Some more on this from Jimmy’s book (previous page):

    Miles Davis critique of Sonny Stitt question-441b0792-f6f1-4d95-b7f4-f0a5ddacd63c-jpg

  20. #19

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    Anybody else think Miles always played "So What" too fast live?

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Anybody else think Miles always played "So What" too fast live?
    Absolutely, although there were indeed some smoking live versions, but yeah, always seems fast. But then you are always comparing it to possibly one of the most perfectly conceived recordings in all recorded history... and not just Jazz history!

  22. #21

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    Didn’t Miles’ groups do that with a lot of tunes? The studio version comes first, then all the later live versions get successively faster (well that’s how it always seemed to me).

  23. #22

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    Whatever Miles meant to say, Stitt solo sounds 20 years late in delivery.

  24. #23

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    stitt was bird influenced bopper...miles even tho he came up with bird (post diz) was never satisfied to just remain a bopper..he went cool..and he went post-bop... and he went electric..and he went pop...at end!! (marcus miller)

    stitt must have been like an artifact for him...not that stitt wasn't great in his own way..just different

    best example is kind of blue...as great as wynton kelly is...the bill evans tracks sound different!!!

    miles was always pushin...as much about his own personal cool persona as it was about music!

    his derision regarding stitt..with whatever he used to make an example of it ...is expected!!


    cheers

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Some more on this from Jimmy’s book (previous page):
    More! Next page! I want to know the answer to that last question!

    (Personally, with modes, I just stop. I mean, someone has to :-))


  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Anybody else think Miles always played "So What" too fast live?
    Some of them. There are several live versions on YouTube. They're not all fast. But maybe people do play faster at live gigs, it's the excitement