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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Besides of sight reading the absolute note names are way less important, than their relative functions in the tonality and chord context. I do not feel I am stuck at cowboy chords or one pentatonic scale because of this.
Now the enharmonics... your question. If you still ensured you need to absolute name the tones “your awareness of the notes”, you always can take the next step in your awareness, and associate two names of every position in the fretboard and learn to sense and choose them according the current tonality. If it is important for you, this will be the price, no miracle shortcuts.
Btw the way majority of the jazz tunes are in very few tonalities, 6#, 7#, 6b, 7b is not an everyday issue.
So saying that your question is overthinking, definitely does not qualifies one as stuck in very low level as you implied
Similarly paying attention on enharmonics does not qualifies one as advanced...
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11-08-2019 09:54 AM
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Some people trying to respond to things that aren't there. But that happens in every thread. Just the way communication is.
It's ironic that some say awareness of note names is too much thinking hence imply that it has no place in the theory section of a jazz forum.
Note functions are important. Note name awareness does not negate that.
Sorry if this is obvious to many but if you're playing a B major arpeggio, it's still useful to know that your 3rd is D#. And yes that's even if you're playing guitar. That's because you are presumably coming to this chord from another chord or even whole other tonality and you want to be able to change your melodic curve freely. One should be able to find the 3rd this chord anywhere on the fretboard ideally to start an idea. Knowing major 7 arpeggio shapes and function of each dot in the shape doesn't automatically give you that. You should be able to instantly access any chord tone (or non chord tone) of any chord anywhere on the fretboard.
When I improvise I don't think this way usually except when there is an important note in a certain place of the progression I want to bring out, say a cool melody note. But in the woodshed, when I'm working on a tune, internalising the harmony, working on ideas, building lines from different chord tone etc. I do find note awareness to be very useful.Last edited by Tal_175; 11-08-2019 at 10:38 AM.
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Also my cowboy chord comment didn't imply anyone specifically. I'm just saying there is a range of views as to where one should draw the line of theoretical knowledge. Again to each their own. But it doesn't make sense to go out of your way to come to the theory section of the forum and put a dismissive remark about a discussion because it involves note names.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175Last edited by Gabor; 11-08-2019 at 11:04 AM.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Gabor I really don't have time to go through every point with you. You're missing the point. Knowing your major 7 shapes won't allow you to distinguish between where to play B major 7 vs Fmaj7. At some point you still have to refer to the note names. At least in the woodshed.
Many tunes go through the harmony targeting a specific interval, for example ATTYA targets the 3rd of each chord.
Now take tune, as an exercise play though the tune bringing out the 5th of every chord and tell me note awareness is useless.
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Most issues with enharmonics come out of dealing with written notation. In that context, there isn't anything philosophical . It's not a viewpoint or opinion. You have to know how to deal with them. In dealing with choirs , this kind of thing always comes up. You usually have to point some basics out like: " Remember that that F-sharp is the same note as the G-flat you just sang a couple measures back".
There's always angst and questioning why this is so in notated music, but the reasons are good ones when you're reading things like that, especially as a singer or just reading fast passages on any instrument. It gets crazy when you start looking at things with crazy enharmonics, where 2nds look like 3rds or 3rds look like 4ths etc. at tempo, B-flat will absolutely be easier to read if it is part of the key signatureor key of the moment etc. meanwhile, we are mostly talking in these conversations as if these are ALL accidentals. They aren't.
Now, chord symbols are a different beast, honestly. There are slightly different conventions for naming things when you're doing chord symbols above the staff. B-natural is going to be preferred mostly over C-flat.
Finally, there's the part of " what do you think , solely for your own sake while improvising?". Honestly, I feel like that one's way down the list in importance. You can pretty much think whatever you want if you're the only person concerned.
Just keep in mind that all of the talk about "not thinking one note at a time or even in letter names one note at a time while improvising" is true for notation as well. Most players reading notation aren't thinking single note or accidental at a time. They're reading entire phrases. Again, in THAT context, and at tempo, those accidentals which a lot of people don't like mostly start to make a lot more sense.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Also the OP is not about note names, it is specifically about enharmonics. No one stated you do not have to know the note names on the fretboard, and said that you can play an F major without knowing where are the Fs...
Regarding ATTYA: Yes it is possible to play 3rds on all chords without knowing their note names, and especially possible without knowing their enharmonics...
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Originally Posted by Gabor
If you do think note names at least for some types of exercises, it's not unreasonable to have a discussion of how to deal with less commonly occurring enharmonic spellings, especially in the theory section.
Now if I understood correctly your point is "it is not unreasonable to say that OP constitutes over thinking". Good. Glad you made that point but I'd like to go back to the discussion with those you find it a point worth discussion.Last edited by Tal_175; 11-08-2019 at 12:39 PM.
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Originally Posted by Gabor
I did not take any offence to any comment here and enjoy a good discussion.
As far as thinking too much I really don't think of Fb as being an E, I see a Fb and play a Fb or more common Cb In my head it is a Cb not B. We all have our own way of seeing things. Very rarely do I see a double flat or double sharp so I don't think of them at all.
On cowboy chords I sometimes revert to them when I sub with a bluegrass band. My main band is a big band. Big Band has taught me to know the fretboard very well. When the bluegrass band plays in a different key other than G I am ready to play while the others are fumbling with their capos.
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I broadly see my musical activities as falling to two categories: ear training and performance. Everything I do in the woodshed ultimately is ear training. If I had great ears and could find strong melodies to tunes without working on them, I couldn't care less about theory. But I can't.
Theory allows me to come up with ways to work on music that improves my ears and also help me aurally distinguish between subtle musical events. At first things start out as fingerboard exercises, then they expand my ears. Both my ability to hear ideas and access them on the fretboard improve.
My point is the discussion of enharmonics in this thread still in the end is about ear training. Because a discussion of how you see the fretboard comes down to how you organize your ear training activities.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by Tal_175
John
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Originally Posted by John A.
Originally Posted by John A.
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Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I'd like to see an example of that!
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The tricky thing is, as discussed, there are only sharp notes on telecasters, so you have to do a lot of enharmonic respelling to sight read on one.
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The notational strategy of employing 7 letters has both advantages and disadvantages.
Major scales exist for all notes that offer from 0 - 7 sharps or flats.
The spelling requires one note connected to each of the seven letters.
There are 15 such major scale key signatures.
C D E F G A B C
F G A Bb C D E F
Bb C D Eb F G A Bb
Eb F G Ab Bb C D Eb
Ab Bb C Db Eb F G Ab
Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C Db
Gb Ab Bb Cb Db Eb F Gb
Cb Db Eb Fb Gb Ab Bb Cb
C D E F G A B C
G A B C D E F# G
D E F# G A B C# D
A B C# D E F# G# A
E F# G# A B C# D# E
B C# D# E F# G# A# B
F# G# A# B C# D# E# F#
C# D# E# F# G# A# B# C#
The last 2 keys contain one or two of the 4 note spellings in question.
Cb, B#, Fb, E# all exist within basic key signatures.
Cb actually is a bonafide key, although perhaps the only reason to choose it over
B major might be due to a mid-song modulation from a flat key.
Intervals (pre-post tonal) are also codified in relation to variants of the 7 scale degrees.
F - Gb is a minor 2nd while F - F# is an augmented unison even though both are the same half step apart.
Correct naming on the surface facilitates correct analysis.
However, the 7 letter system presents facility to move into even uglier notational territory,
when technically correct spelling requires the use of double flats and double sharps.
A numerical system avoids such pitfalls but at this time, it is not the commonplace conduit to
communicate a composition.
Music can be successfully played relying purely on a direct connection between sonic knowledge
and the mechanical aspects of realizing those sounds. In this way, this issue is a non-issue
until we are either reading or notating music.
As reading musicians, these 4 note spellings appear only occasionally. Still, when this happens,
what response will we choose to have for such an occasion. One way or another, it is our job to
play the music to the best of our abilities. And when we are the person notating the music,
what presentation strategy will we choose. What is the best balance between the technically
correct spelling vs. an expedient alternative for easier comprehension/accuracy by the ensemble
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I remember coming across published sheet music for a Blur song in C# major
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C# - 7 sharps or Db - 5 flats
Cb - 7 flats or B - 5 sharps
Fielder's choice:
F# - 6 sharps or Gb - 6 flats
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Originally Posted by bako
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heh heh
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