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  1. #1

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    Hi guys,

    How are you?

    I recently heard, I am not sure if it is real or not, Tom Jobim said that brazilian musicians killed bossa nova incorporating too much jazz in it.

    I always thought that bossa nova was created borrowing from jazz harmony and rhythm from samba.

    Is there a way too sound more bossa(ish) than jazzy, speaking in harmony only, not rhythm...

    Does bossa nova or Brazilian music have some specifications, peculiarities compared to jazz that makes bossa, brazilian music unique? Harmonically specking.

    Thanks.

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  3. #2

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    To better understand what Jobim possibly meant I think we would have to go back in time to Brazil in the second half of the 60s. I wasn't there so I can only guess that Bossa had to give way for new expressions, much like in other parts of Latin America, the US and in Europe. The new artists of that time were supposed to have a political message and a rebel attitude that gave rise to the Folk music movement with artists like Violeta Parra from Chile. At this time American Jazz was no longer pop music.

    I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music, but eventually it had to give way for a new generation of artists. But even though Jazz lost the throne, still to this day there are millions of fans around the globe. And ever since the 60s, Jazz musicians continue to explore the landscape. Jazz became art music and this is what I think Jobim did observe.

    "Bossa" basically means "trend". And trends are supposed to die, to give room for new trends. But this is obviously just from a pop-music perspective. Bossa Nova will never die, and neither will Tom Jobim nor Joao Gilberto. There is no way to sound more Bossa than Joao Gilberto. His legacy is huge. You can listen to about anything the man recorded to get a feel for the formula.

    My personal reflection is that Bossa harmony has traces from Iberian folk music, which in turn is influenced by oriental harmony. It's a highly interesting mix of influences, making it world-music.

  4. #3

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    Maybe it did. The opposite could be argued too.
    Change/Evolution is inevitable and especially rapid in a global society.

    In my experience the Brazilian and jazz communities naturally cross paths to some extent, but never without it's hardline traditionalists. I guess it just depends on where your center of gravity lies.

  5. #4

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    To better understand what Jobim possibly meant I think we would have to go back in time to Brazil in the second half of the 60s. I wasn't there so I can only guess that Bossa had to give way for new expressions, much like in other parts of Latin America, the US and in Europe. The new artists of that time were supposed to have a political message and a rebel attitude that gave rise to the Folk music movement with artists like Violeta Parra from Chile. At this time American Jazz was no longer pop music.

    I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music, but eventually it had to give way for a new generation of artists. But even though Jazz lost the throne, still to this day there are millions of fans around the globe. And ever since the 60s, Jazz musicians continue to explore the landscape. Jazz became art music and this is what I think Jobim did observe.

    "Bossa" basically means "trend". And trends are supposed to die, to give room for new trends. But this is obviously just from a pop-music perspective. Bossa Nova will never die, and neither will Tom Jobim nor Joao Gilberto. There is no way to sound more Bossa than Joao Gilberto. His legacy is huge. You can listen to about anything the man recorded to get a feel for the formula.

    My personal reflection is that Bossa harmony has traces from Iberian folk music, which in turn is influenced by oriental harmony. It's a highly interesting mix of influences, making it world-music.

    Very nicely stated, J! especially when you say "I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music." My advice to a beginning guitarist if he/she were interested in playing Jazz would be to study Classical Music for the pedagogy, then morph into Bossa and then, Jazz. If you learn the Bossa standards with its complex harmonic progressions, you're a short leap to playing Jazz. Good playing . . . Marinero

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero View Post
    Very nicely stated, J! especially when you say "I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music." My advice to a beginning guitarist if he/she were interested in playing Jazz would be to study Classical Music for the pedagogy, then morph into Bossa and then, Jazz. If you learn the Bossa standards with its complex harmonic progressions, you're a short leap to playing Jazz. Good playing . . . Marinero
    Thanks for all your input!!

    So in your opinion, bossa is a "simpler" version of jazz, like R&B?

    What about the origins of bossa's harmony? Specially in João Gilberto and Jobim songs?

    What's more, so using more sophisticated harmony killed bossa, you all agree?

    Thanks.

  7. #6

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    JCat is on it! That works for me! Well said JC!

    No, I don't believe Jazz killed Bossa. Depending on ones perspective, Jazz complimented Bossa. And Bossa is still alive and thriving in the minds and souls of some. But like any other music, the music is a time capsule of its own. Time, taste, marches on. Me I'll be taking the music of the 60's to my grave. Bossa Nova rules!
    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  8. #7

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    [QUOTE=bossa;972147]Thanks for all your input!!

    So in your opinion, bossa is a "simpler" version of jazz, like R&B?

    What about the origins of bossa's harmony? Specially in João Gilberto and Jobim songs?

    What's more, so using more sophisticated harmony killed bossa, you all agree?

    Thanks.[/QUOTE

    Hi, Bossa,
    Bossa, for me, is a simpler form as compared to Jazz . But, this IS NOT an denigrating remark. However, it is much more complex than R and B. For the record, I love Bossa! Did more sophisticated harmony kill Bossa? I don't know but I have a low opinion of the average music listener and anything that challenges them makes it difficult for success. I play Bossa regularly. Long live Bossa! Good playing . . . Marinero

  9. #8

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    I wonder if someone on a Classical piano forum is asking did Jobim kill Chopin.

    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossa View Post
    Hi guys,

    How are you?

    I recently heard, I am not sure if it is real or not, Tom Jobim said that brazilian musicians killed bossa nova incorporating too much jazz in it.

    I always thought that bossa nova was created borrowing from jazz harmony and rhythm from samba.

    Is there a way too sound more bossa(ish) than jazzy, speaking in harmony only, not rhythm...

    Does bossa nova or Brazilian music have some specifications, peculiarities compared to jazz that makes bossa, brazilian music unique? Harmonically specking.

    Thanks.
    I can only see it's true if we're talking too much jazz for the expense of the rhythm feel. Otherwise it doesn't make much sense. As you rightfully said, Bossa Nova is originally mix of jazz and samba. So jazz harmony with Brazilian rhythm. If you keep the rhythm part intact, all should be good. And what is 'too much jazz' anyway? Why do you think he's talking about harmony? And if Brazilian musicians, not outsiders experimenting with new sounds, also nothing wrong with that IMO. Even though, I did meet a Brazilian jazz guitarist who wasn't very familiar with Bossa style. But it's NYC, everything can get mixed up.

  11. #10

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossa View Post
    Hi guys,

    How are you?

    I recently heard, I am not sure if it is real or not, Tom Jobim said that brazilian musicians killed bossa nova incorporating too much jazz in it.

    I always thought that bossa nova was created borrowing from jazz harmony and rhythm from samba.

    Is there a way too sound more bossa(ish) than jazzy, speaking in harmony only, not rhythm...

    Does bossa nova or Brazilian music have some specifications, peculiarities compared to jazz that makes bossa, brazilian music unique? Harmonically specking.

    Thanks.
    I think the sound harmonies of Bossa are wonderful; unfortunately, I think what Bossa was doing got picked up to some degree by "Smooth Jazz" and both Bossa and Jazz have suffered damaged reputations somewhat since.

    The Bossa sound of harmonies to me is a subtle and sophisticated sound derived from Jazz but amazingly it delightfully avoids any sense of pretense that some Jazz sounds tend to show. The chord changes in Bossa are more like changes in angular orientation than displacements of position (Bossa chords "sound like they change without moving" is how I think it).

    For example, in "Girl From Ipanema", the starting chords "Fmaj7 -> G7" are really Fmaj9 -> G6/F seventh on the bottom...
    maybe like this:

    x 8 10 9 8 x
    x 8 9 9 8 x

    The seventh on the bottom is very Bossa... in "Wave" there is a pair of "two-fives"...
    "F#(7) -> B7"
    "E7 -> A7"
    where all four chords have sevenths on the bottom...
    maybe like this:

    x 7 8 8 7 x -> x x 7 8 8 7
    x 5 6 6 5 x -> x x 5 6 6 5
    "Bent my ear to hear the tune and closed my eyes to see."

  12. #11

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    There is (or was) a documentary on Netflix called "This is Bossa Nova" which included conversations and interviews with some of the originators of the form. Very interesting. Basically what they said is that they had traditional Brazilian music (samba, choro, etc.) and wanted to add more sophisticated harmonies and melodies. Bossa was intended to be largely a guitar and vocal music originally, a more sophisticated folk music. Jazz musicians polished it further, changed the groove a little bit and turned many of the tunes into instrumentals.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  13. #12

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    Boss's Nova translates to English as NEW BEAT.

  14. #13

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    I thought it meant ‘new trend’ or ‘new wave’.

  15. #14

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    Quote Originally Posted by benrosow View Post
    Boss's Nova translates to English as NEW BEAT.
    Yeah why not. A new beat, a new sound, a new wave...

    Wikipedia
    In Brazil, the word "bossa" is old-fashioned slang for something that is done with particular charm, natural flair or innate ability.

    Within the artistic beach culture of the late 1950s in Rio de Janeiro, the term "bossa" was used to refer to any new "trend" or "fashionable wave".

  16. #15

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    Quote Originally Posted by bossa View Post
    Thanks for all your input!!

    So in your opinion, bossa is a "simpler" version of jazz, like R&B?

    What about the origins of bossa's harmony? Specially in João Gilberto and Jobim songs?

    What's more, so using more sophisticated harmony killed bossa, you all agree?

    Thanks.
    Uhh, NO, I don't agree. At all. Boss's Nova (translates to English as NEW BEAT) is typically not the most harmonically complex of jazz sub-genres, but neither is it "simpler" or less complex, on average. Compared to Parker tunes [e.g., Confirmation, Ornithology,...) which typically involve cleverly modulated ii-V-I sequences, or even Coltrane tunes (e.g., Giant Steps, which repeats a tricky but learnable 4 chord sequence that moves key centers up a major 3rd), I'd assert that Boss's Nova songs are right down the middle of the plate in the jazz idiom, otherwise, they would not have become standards.

    Jazz students struggle to memorize and make musical sense of Desifinato, which has much more irregular modulation and odd changes than most bop tunes. O Barquino (My Little Boat), a simpler Bossa offering, is no less complex than a 1930's blowing standard. Compare it to Things Ain't What They Used to Be or Don't Be That Way. Jazz players LOVE The Girl From Ipanema because of it's jazzy key movement in minor thirds. How Insensitive makes very elegant use in its second bar of a diminished chord as a dominant 7th with a flat 9th in the bass, and don't think that jazz students don't stumble when trying to figure out what to play on THAT one. One needs at least a middling knowledge of classical harmony to figure it out based upon the chord that follows.

    To me, the thing that separates the great Bossa standards as a group or sub-genre from other post WWII jazz tunes is the incredibly elegant use of western harmony in support of the song. And this results in tunes that 1) are satisfying for non-musicians, and 2) provide plenty of clever contour for jazz players to dig in and make music. If a song form is a road, then bossa standards are English B roads for sports car enthusiasts, while many bop standards (not all, don't get your knickers in a bundle) are more akin to a NASCAR track designed to feature a player just blowing in a simple format.

    I am sure that there is a pile of Bossa throw-aways out there, unexceptional and formulaic, just as there is a mountain of jazz chaff (see An Oscar for Treadwell by Parker) that players resurrect from time to time for the novelty their obscurity. But the Bossa standards that we know and love are gems that last and will be played well into the future because they are brilliant tunes. Jobim & Bonfa take their places alongside the Billy Strayhorns of the world as creators of brilliant original music.

    None of the great Bossa standards use new harmonic inventions. What they do, however, is apply standard Western harmonies in extremely clever ways that make writers say, "Why didn't I think of that?" similar to the great Stevie Wonder or Beatles tunes. The result is that these tunes crossed over easily into the pop charts, which violates the one of the Jazz commandments: "Thou shalt not enjoy excessive commercial success." Once that happens, there is a faction of purists waiting to pounce on the jazz credentials in the offending tune. Shame on Jobim for his popularity.

    Now, nothing "killed Bossa". Like most great forms, it was a product of its time and its popularity ran it's course. Many things happened to "kill" various forms of music. Crooners, bebop, trad jazz, modern jazz [insert definition here], were all pushed aside by inventions like Rock n Roll, the British invasion, Soul, fusion, punk, grunge, and later rap. It happens [insert rant here]. But Bossa can't be put back into the barn, so it is here for all who fall under its spell to enjoy and rework forever.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    I wonder if someone on a Classical piano forum is asking did Jobim kill Chopin.

    Opus 28 No4, Prelude in E minor! That's my favorite Chopin and I have transcribed it for solo guitar.

    This is how Karrin Allyson interprets it into Bossa Nova:



  18. #17

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    Yes Jazz killed her... Bossa was hot... everybody wanted her... jazz did not want to share... die or be mine he said... tough time... men ruled you know... today Bossa could have been in congress.
    Those days - poor Brazilian girl in the States... what could she do?

    Later Rock tried to kill Jazz - allegedely because of the same reasons...
    but this story seems to be more delicate and intimate even for our days so we do not want to know the details of it.

    Now I hear Jazz is retired but he is at piece I believe... never been married but had some kids here and there... some are quite ok with him but some do not want even to recognize him as a father.

    Rock still wants to look younger than he really is...

    And Bossa... Bossa is dead. Jazz knows why...

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Yes Jazz killed her... Bossa was hot... everybody wanted her... jazz did not want to share... die or be mine he said... tough time... men ruled you know... today Bossa could have been in congress.
    Those days - poor Brazilian girl in the States... what could she do?

    Later Rock tried to kill Jazz - allegedely because of the same reasons...
    but this story seems to be more delicate and intimate even for our days so we do not want to know the details of it.

    Now I hear Jazz is retired but he is at piece I believe... never been married but had some kids here and there... some are quite ok with him but some do not want even to recognize him as a father.

    Rock still wants to look younger than he really is...

    And Bossa... Bossa is dead. Jazz knows why...
    Humour is good for the soul. Thanks for the therapy!

    Albert

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Opus 28 No4, Prelude in E minor! That's my favorite Chopin and I have transcribed it for solo guitar.

    This is how Karrin Allyson interprets it into Bossa Nova:


    And Gene Bertoncini:



    BTW, the source album is "Someone To Light up My Life" which is a wonderful, superb recording of Gene at the top of his game and two simpatico percussionists. It is a masterpiece IMHO.
    Beauty is as close to terror as we can well endure. -Rainer Maria Rilke

  21. #20

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    It is interesting how Chopin's piece in 20th century transformed actually in something absolutely different than what it was originally...
    20th century pop music noticed and highlighted (and borrowed) some features from classical and it seems that they implied some kind of retrospective meaning.

    Original Chopin's piece is very much contextualized within the cycle and it actually was not thought as sentimentally corny as it is being performed and perceived today.

  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It is interesting how Chopin's piece in 20th century transformed actually in something absolutely different than what it was originally...
    20th century pop music noticed and highlighted (and borrowed) some features from classical and it seems that they implied some kind of retrospective meaning.

    Original Chopin's piece is very much contextualized within the cycle and it actually was not thought as sentimentally corny as it is being performed and perceived today.
    Female French novelist George Sand spent the winter of 1838-1839 with Chopin in Majorca at the monastery of Valldemosa when the piece was written. Her daughter claimed that Sand gave a title to each of Chopin’s Preludes. It's believed that she called it "What tears are shed from the depths of the damp monastery?". Lol.

    It was even called "suffocation" by conductors at the time, which I think is totally absurd and just shows that Chopin was ahead of his time. I don't think anybody had heard this type of "chord progressions" before.

    Chopin personifies romanticism. The music is sentimental (marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism). I have no problems with that.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by JCat View Post
    Female French novelist George Sand spent the winter of 1838-1839 with Chopin in Majorca at the monastery of Valldemosa when the piece was written. Her daughter claimed that Sand gave a title to each of Chopin’s Preludes. It's believed that she called it "What tears are shed from the depths of the damp monastery?". Lol.

    It was even called "suffocation" by conductors at the time, which I think is totally absurd and just shows that Chopin was ahead of his time. I don't think anybody had heard this type of "chord progressions" before.

    Chopin personifies romanticism. The music is sentimental (marked or governed by feeling, sensibility, or emotional idealism). I have no problems with that.
    I do not think that music is somehow specially sentimental - -- I think this is a common cliche which makes sense only about pop songs.


    Chopin was genius. When I say genius in music I mean exceptional musical gift. But I am convinced he was cold, ironic, often extremely rational composer - I'd say in his music he is quite often evil
    - he was also much influenced by contemporary salone culture and its specific code of behaviour, interaction and communication that took a pose, appearnce, some kind of hypocricy for granted -- the only advantage was that this culture was still fresh and had some kind of real passion in that lifestyle (which became muvh more stale by the end of the century) .
    He often looks at his music as if from aside.
    It does not make him a less genius.

    (By the way the same concerns George Sand too.. this "What tears are shed from the depths of the damp monastery?" represnts rather not the romaticism but the kiterature model of it. The code of expression.)

    In later periods - and especially in 20th century some of the context was lost -- much of his harmonies and turnarounds were internalized by pop and movie composers... they turned into cliches of sentimitality (again I do not think music is specially sentimental per se)

    But the advantage - undoubted of Chopin - that even in that he was pretty egocentric and did not care much about it all.

    Schumann was not genius, was not that original and innovative but as for the contents of his music he is much more interesting for me than Chopin.
    And Schumann represents maistream conception of romanticism much clearer.. he is truely open and direct and does not accept conventionality of salone culture (though formally he follows it sometimes in his songs and chamber works), he is extremely invovled into his own music and world, and the biggest difference from Chopin is that he is very human.

    I just of course what I hear ... everyone has the right for their own (even absoutely wrong) opinion.

  24. #23

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    Bossa is about the songs. Maybe too much improvisation?

  25. #24



  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Bossa is about the songs. Maybe too much improvisation?
    Blame it on Getz? Let the man rest in peace.
    "You've got to be in the sun to feel the sun. It's that way with music too." - Sidney Bechet

  27. #26

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    So presumably jazz didn't kill Chopin...

  28. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop View Post
    Blame it on Getz? Let the man rest in peace.
    No I wasn’t thinking of Getz. His solos tended to be paraphrases of the melody.

    The problem is when problem run the changes isn’t it? Which is tempting because the changes are mega.

  29. #28

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    I like the characterisation of Chopin as quite evil. Do you have a specific example? I suppose the revolution study?

  30. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by benrosow View Post
    Uhh, NO, I don't agree. At all. Boss's Nova (translates to English as NEW BEAT) is typically not the most harmonically complex of jazz sub-genres, but neither is it "simpler" or less complex, on average. Compared to Parker tunes [e.g., Confirmation, Ornithology,...) which typically involve cleverly modulated ii-V-I sequences, or even Coltrane tunes (e.g., Giant Steps, which repeats a tricky but learnable 4 chord sequence that moves key centers up a major 3rd), I'd assert that Boss's Nova songs are right down the middle of the plate in the jazz idiom, otherwise, they would not have become standards.

    Jazz students struggle to memorize and make musical sense of Desifinato, which has much more irregular modulation and odd changes than most bop tunes. O Barquino (My Little Boat), a simpler Bossa offering, is no less complex than a 1930's blowing standard. Compare it to Things Ain't What They Used to Be or Don't Be That Way. Jazz players LOVE The Girl From Ipanema because of it's jazzy key movement in minor thirds. How Insensitive makes very elegant use in its second bar of a diminished chord as a dominant 7th with a flat 9th in the bass, and don't think that jazz students don't stumble when trying to figure out what to play on THAT one. One needs at least a middling knowledge of classical harmony to figure it out based upon the chord that follows.

    To me, the thing that separates the great Bossa standards as a group or sub-genre from other post WWII jazz tunes is the incredibly elegant use of western harmony in support of the song. And this results in tunes that 1) are satisfying for non-musicians, and 2) provide plenty of clever contour for jazz players to dig in and make music. If a song form is a road, then bossa standards are English B roads for sports car enthusiasts, while many bop standards (not all, don't get your knickers in a bundle) are more akin to a NASCAR track designed to feature a player just blowing in a simple format.

    I am sure that there is a pile of Bossa throw-aways out there, unexceptional and formulaic, just as there is a mountain of jazz chaff (see An Oscar for Treadwell by Parker) that players resurrect from time to time for the novelty their obscurity. But the Bossa standards that we know and love are gems that last and will be played well into the future because they are brilliant tunes. Jobim & Bonfa take their places alongside the Billy Strayhorns of the world as creators of brilliant original music.
    Yeah.

    Django’s tune Tears for instance:


    (Billy Strayhorn is a good example too. Although I think his tunes are just hard to improvise on.)

    For example: I had to do a lot of research and thinking to learn how to play dim chords elegantly. By which I mean seeing them as connected to the tonality and not just running Coltrane style patterns on them.

    I assumed this was down to me not being formally educated in jazz, but having spoken to those with actual jazz degrees, it turns out you can graduate from elite institutions with a very rudimentary knowledge of functional harmony. They can all play great, but they often have weird weak spots in their changes playing. The repertoire they are taught at college minimises those harmonic situations. But as you say - Bossa always stands out - and they have to learn it because people know those songs....

    It’s impossible to play melodically on dim chords if you don’t understand how they are related to the central tonality. And as Bossa invites the older melodic tradition of jazz improvisation on the melody rather than the sophisticated changes running of the 50s boppers, so that sort of passage work always feels inappropriate to me.

    It’s easy to see why dim harmony isn’t taught. Mostly dim chords went out of fashion in US jazz in the 50s I guess.

    Brad Mehldau points out learning bop became about transplanting units of canned Parker material on ii Vs. Even for some of the greats of the 50s and 60s!

    OTOH - there’s a much simpler solution that is even more alien to the jazz academies - you could simply not think about the harmony and rely on you ears to avoid clams playing diatonically through the song. The way the trad guys did it.... I actually think this is how Getz often soloed although he could clearly run changes too.


    If I hadn’t needed to work out what the hell to do dim chords and other types of non Ii V motion you see in prewar jazz, it’s likely I would never have bothered.

    I feel mention should also be made of Nazareth, Pixinguinha and so on. Often very classical tinged harmony in that music.

    The first Bossa tune, Chega, was based on a Choro style form. Jacob do Bandolim played it as a choro. No blowing in the jazz sense.
    Last edited by christianm77; 08-18-2019 at 05:17 AM.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I actually think this is how Getz often soloed although he could clearly run changes too.
    Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....

  32. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cunamara View Post
    And Gene Bertoncini:



    BTW, the source album is "Someone To Light up My Life" which is a wonderful, superb recording of Gene at the top of his game and two simpatico percussionists. It is a masterpiece IMHO.
    Thanks for the Bertoncini, hadn't heard that.

    More Bossa Chopin.. Jim Hall's on the Mulligan version.




  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75 View Post
    Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....
    Actually that really doesn’t surprise me from the bits of Getz I’ve transcribed.

    Burton just got tired of of playing standards. I’d be interested to know how much of the CsT movement came out of that.

  34. #33

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    Quote Originally Posted by dot75 View Post
    Gary Burton's first job was a couple of years on the road with Getz in the early 60's. He says in numerous places that Getz had limited theoretical knowledge and waited to hear what the band did behind him & then play by ear. For Burton CST is the answer....
    Burton has a very interesting overview of the Jazz Repertoire ..and Jazz & Music in general in this interview:

    Last edited by Robertkoa; 08-18-2019 at 09:48 AM.

  35. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Yeah.

    It’s impossible to play melodically on dim chords if you don’t understand how they are related to the central tonality. And as Bossa invites the older melodic tradition of jazz improvisation on the melody rather than the sophisticated changes running of the 50s boppers, so that sort of passage work always feels inappropriate to me.

    It’s easy to see why dim harmony isn’t taught. Mostly dim chords went out of fashion in US jazz in the 50s I guess.
    Hi Cristian, using the Barry Harris method would be a good way to think, reharm and play melodically, specially over dim7 chords?

    Changing the subject a little bit...

  36. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Bossa is about the songs. Maybe too much improvisation?
    If you listen to bossa the way they played it in Brazil, you're hearing the real thing.
    I can't remember who said it, maybe Emily Remler? that Americans don't play it correctly, too much syncopation etc.
    For example authentic bass lines in bossa are typically just a simple 2 feel, not all the added rhythms you're apt to hear in American interpretations.

  37. #36

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  38. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by wintermoon View Post
    If you listen to bossa the way they played it in Brazil, you're hearing the real thing.
    I can't remember who said it, maybe Emily Remler? that Americans don't play it correctly, too much syncopation etc.
    For example authentic bass lines in bossa are typically just a simple 2 feel, not all the added rhythms you're apt to hear in American interpretations.
    Why would you listen to Americans doing it?

  39. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    Why would you listen to Americans doing it?
    because when Americans do something you should listen!

  40. #39

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    "I think of Bossa Nova as the final stage of Jazz as popular music"

    Huh?

    I was always under the impression that if there is a category in billboard magazine it is still considered popular music... it's just not on syndicated radio offerings that play the latest corporate smash hits to pre pubescent teenage girls and highly infatuated teenage groovy boys.

    I seem to recall that smooth jazz had a pretty big footprint way after Bossa Nova.

  41. #40

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    Bossa Nova had some great harmony going on. Especially the sophisticated use of diminished, augmented (symmetric harmony) and Melodic Minor.

    some jazz musicians substitute the Jobim harmony with II-V-progressions and changing diminished into altered dominant or 7b9b13. Interesting, but at the same time limiting.

    Bossa is certainly not harmonically simple, au contraire.

    Modern jazz is much more open to diminished harmony and symmetric harmony.

    But did jazz kill Bossa Nova? Isn’t it the commercial Juggernaut of diluted and badly played Bossa that finished it, like it did with most art...?!

  42. #41

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    Quote Originally Posted by Djang View Post
    some jazz musicians substitute the Jobim harmony with II-V-progressions and changing diminished into altered dominant or 7b9b13. Interesting, but at the same time limiting.
    I would say, not interesting, and bad sounding :-)

    The Aebersold charts for Bossa tunes are an abomination.

    Jazz musicians forgot how to solo on anything that isn't a II-V-I. Getz did it all by ear.

  43. #42

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77 View Post
    I would say, not interesting, and bad sounding :-)

    The Aebersold charts for Bossa tunes are an abomination.

    Jazz musicians forgot how to solo on anything that isn't a II-V-I. Getz did it all by ear.
    Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

    Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.

  44. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by jameslovestal View Post
    Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

    Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.
    Getting good charts is not always the easiest, but the Almir Chediak books have really nice changes and voicings. Not the easiest to get hold of though and also in Portuguese.

  45. #44

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    Oh no; most of the bossa tunes I play (Wave, Corcovado etc...), come from Aebersold charts found in volume 31 - Bossa Nova.

    Guess I should find other charts and see what chords are used instead.
    Authentic Brazialian bossa is better learned by ear or when copied from a player... Brazilian guitar (especially 7 string) is pretty different beast both from traditional classical and northern American guitars...

    I think it was mixed very much with classical guitar but it is not the same thing.

    I am not that much inot it but I had a period of strong interest... when you begin to look at more from inside... or more from Brazilian music and guitarism perspective you begin to notice different things than we are used to notice in our pop and jazz bossa context...

    In a word - though bossa was professional genre original - it comes directly from folk source and folk music is often unpredictably spontaneous and better learnt directly from the source