The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #26

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    OK. Let's get silly - what about the use of the Lydian cadence in the Dorian tonality of Machaut's Kyrie?

    Yes, could be something like that.... and I am probably that 14th century guy who would say: What Lydian? I hear just voice-leading to Dorian!

    (though actually Lydian here would be rather a rudimental thinking, and with Parker I think it is the converse?)


    I read a book on classical harmony once - the Dynamics of Harmony by George Pratt - that said we should abandon the idea of major and parallel minor and think of one unified tonality.
    It may make sense as some abstract idea - if you think of music as of sounds -(or for some modern tonality conception) but hardly in application to European music at least from high baroque till late 19th century where keys and their realtions are meaningful elements of the language (whether they in these terms or not).
    It is like saying that circle and square are just one and the same shape or red and blure are just the same colours and apply itn to European painting, or that actually there is no difference between rondo and sonet... if you do it you will not understand the painting or the poem.

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  3. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I understand the tool and how it is applied
    That's all you need, just apply it :-)

    Here's this. LOTS of minor 2-5's before a M7. I don't think any of them sound particularly 'minor'.


  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Yes, could be something like that.... and I am probably that 14th century guy who would say: What Lydian? I hear just voice-leading to Dorian!


    (though actually Lydian here would be rather a rudimental thinking, and with Parker I think it is the converse?)
    Actually as far as I know there are no treatises on 14th century harmony. The term 'Lydian cadence' is modern. So who knows how they thought of it or heard it? But obviously plainsongs were categorised according to modes, and this music was usually an elaborate embellishment of plainsong pitches.

    It may make sense as some abstract idea - if you think of music as of sounds -(or for some modern tonality conception) but hardly in application to European music at least from high baroque till late 19th century where keys and their realtions are meaningful elements of the language (whether they in these terms or not).
    It is like saying that circle and square are just one and the same shape or red and blure are just the same colours and apply itn to European painting, or that actually there is no difference between rondo and sonet... if you do it you will not understand the painting or the poem.
    I dunno it's getting pretty philosophical. I think I hear major/minor. I always liked that duality when I hear it...

    But we are talking about jazz, presumably

    So the line 'how strange the change from major to minor' means nothing to you? ;-)

  5. #29

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    Actually as far as I know there are no treatises on 14th century harmony. The term 'Lydian cadence' is modern. So who knows how they thought of it or heard it? But obviously plainsongs were categorised according to modes, and this music was usually an elaborate embellishment of plainsong pitches.
    It coincided that I have been getting more into that stuff recently... practically playing the music and communicating with the players like Rodenkirchen, Danil Ryabchikov here (outstanding citole player) and others. Very interesting how deeply they go into that without actually having really direct sources, you really must be dissolved in the period to recreate something convinicingly. Sometimes I think that baroque player have too many sources and it takes away their own resposibility for choices.

    dunno it's getting pretty philosophical. I think I hear major/minor. I always liked that duality when I hear it...

    But we are talking about jazz, presumably
    If you see my first post here there is nothing philosophical in it (and even if there were the philosophy is practical thing too).

    I do not mind you hear that.
    I understood what you meant.

    So the line 'how strange the change from major to minor' means nothing to you?
    I do not hear change for major to minor in opening line of Yradbird Suite ... it is just major for me.
    This is what the whole hearing and terminology thing is about for me.
    I name only what I experience or hear - that is why there is no abstract philosophy for me where someone can see some.

    I believe see the picture from different angles or I would say from different scopes maybe?
    I see the whole line of landscape on it as primary thing that is more essential for me for the meaning whole picture...
    and you see some changes in that line as some sort of contrasting one to another ans you find this essential.
    I see these changes too but for me they fit perfectly the whole line... making no contrast.

    We do not contradict each other in general probaly, but the interprestation is different and it affect many thing (how we play an dthink in music for example).

    Thanks for sharing anyway - becasue actually this thread made some things clearer for me.
    I will not be surprised if in a year I will finally say: hm... there is some sort of minor/major thing in that line...

  6. #30

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    Bb7 is backdoor to C, backdoor acts like IV or V7.
    Abmaj7 is paralell to Fm7
    Db7 is tritone of V7.

    In a big picture all IV and V are interchangeable both melodically and harmonically. So, basicaly you've got I and V.
    Learn your I and your V and off you go.
    Look at Schoenberg harmonic regions for deeper understanding, but be cautious bcs in jazz other substitutions are used. Another story...

  7. #31

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    It coincided that I have been getting more into that stuff recently... practically playing the music and communicating with the players like Rodenkirchen, Danil Ryabchikov here (outstanding citole player) and others. Very interesting how deeply they go into that without actually having really direct sources, you really must be dissolved in the period to recreate something convinicingly. Sometimes I think that baroque player have too many sources and it takes away their own resposibility for choices.
    I think this is interesting too- you can take the gamut (see what I did there?) of recordings of Machaut’s mass from the Hilliard Ensemble through to the Ensemble Organum... and that’s just Acapella recordings...

    Seems more fun to me.