Using Minor 7th scales a 5th above a dominant 7 chord

[sandcatcher]

I've just read a book called ' Jazz bebop blues guitar' which suggests playing minor 7th arpeggios a 5th above a dom 7th chord in blues. So for example if the I chord was G7 you play a Dm7 arpeggio above it. Or a Dm9 or Dm6.
When you break this down in this example the Dm7 arpeggio is:
D, F, A, C. If we now relate this to the G7 chord we get a spelling of 4 (C note) 5 (D note) 9 (A note) and b7 (F note) So this is really giving us some of the notes of G mixolydian?
When we add in the 6th of Dm and the 9th we are adding the B note (3rd of G7) and the E ( 6th of G7). So now we have 3,4,5,6,b7,9 which is a rootless G Mixolydian?
Am I correct so far?
He then goes on to say you can do the same for the IV and the V chord i.e. play a m7 arp a fifth above each chord. So effectively playing Mixolydian (or partial Mixolydian) for each chord.
Just wondering if my thinking on this was correct. He doesn't mention that this relates to Mixolydian in the book but says it evokes certain players such as Pat Martino.

[joe2758]

I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

Just a different frame of thought

[DS71]

Min7b5 Arpeggio off the 3rd of the Dominant 7 Chord, as well.

[princeplanet]

I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

Just a different frame of thought

... or the 4 note arps instead of just the 3 ...

[Jack E Blue]

I know just enough music theory to be dangerous, but I think understand this. You can simplify this by looking at it this way: the dominant 7th is theoretically a V chord. A minor 7th chord up a 5th from a dominant 7th chord is therefore the ii chord. The ii and V are interchangeable.

I learned this from the Mickey Baker book. Somebody correct me if I wrong.

[princeplanet]

The way I simplify the explanation for extensions is to suggest that any part of the diatonic 13th chord or arp can act as a substitute for the underlying chord. Works for me anyway...

[joe2758]

... or the 4 note arps instead of just the 3 ...

....yeah or just play the whole scale in 3rds....

[ragman1]

I don't know what a minor 7th scale is but if you mean playing the Dorian of the ii of V chord then that makes sense.

In other words you're playing D Dorian (C maj scale) over G7. The point is that outlining a Dm7 chord over the G7 puts the emphasis on the G7 extensions, especially the 6/13th and 9th.

Incidentally, if you sharpen the 7th note of the Dorian mode (so C becomes C#) then you're playing the G Lydian Dominant scale which is also effective.

Or, simple version, just play Dm7 over G7 and see how it sounds different to playing G7 over G7.

[sandcatcher]

I don't know what a minor 7th scale is but if you mean playing the Dorian of the ii of V chord then that makes sense.

In other words you're playing D Dorian (C maj scale) over G7. The point is that outlining a Dm7 chord over the G7 puts the emphasis on the G7 extensions, especially the 6/13th and 9th.

Incidentally, if you sharpen the 7th note of the Dorian mode (so C becomes C#) then you're playing the G Lydian Dominant scale which is also effective.

Or, simple version, just play Dm7 over G7 and see how it sounds different to playing G7 over G7.

Perhaps should have just said arpeggios not scale of minor 7th.
But yes that makes sense that playing the Dm7 arps in this case is a way of highlighting the G7 extensions. Thanks

[sandcatcher]

I'm not sure of the question, but it looks like you understand it.

Think of it this way: There are 3 important arpeggios when playing mixolydian. a major triad off the b7, the major off the 1, and the minor off the 5th. These are triads WITHIN the scale that sound classic. Putting the arpeggios together don't make the scale, the scale contains them.

Just a different frame of thought

Cool, like that idea, will give it some thought. Thanks

[sandcatcher]

Min7b5 Arpeggio off the 3rd of the Dominant 7 Chord, as well.

Nice! Cheers

[sandcatcher]

The way I simplify the explanation for extensions is to suggest that any part of the diatonic 13th chord or arp can act as a substitute for the underlying chord. Works for me anyway...

Is this just in relation to dom 7th chords? So you are basically saying you can use 1,3,5,7,9,13 (a 13th chord spelled out) over the underlying chord, yes?

[princeplanet]

Actually any diatonic chord! - so in place of (or over) 1 3 5 7 , you can play : 3 5 7 9, 5 7 9 11, 7 9 11 13.

All these are very common substitutes.

[christianm77]

Minor7, Minor6 or Min(Maj7)

That's all the options you need for a dominant, when you add in tritone sub.

[sandcatcher]

Actually any diatonic chord! - so in place of (or over) 1 3 5 7 , you can play : 3 5 7 9, 5 7 9 11, 7 9 11 13.

All these are very common substitutes.

makes sense, thanks

[sandcatcher]

Minor7, Minor6 or Min(Maj7)

That's all the options you need for a dominant, when you add in tritone sub.

Got it, cheers

[ragman1]

Perhaps should have just said arpeggios not scale of minor 7th.
But yes that makes sense that playing the Dm7 arps in this case is a way of highlighting the G7 extensions. Thanks

Sorry, beg pardon, I was rushing earlier and didn't read your post properly but it's apparently all sorted out now. Goody :-)

[rpjazzguitar]

In case this isn't already clear:

G13 and Dm13 have the same notes. D F A C G E B. All the white keys on the piano. Cmaj13, also. Same notes.

You can extract groups of notes (groups of 2, 3, 4, 5 etc) and they all have the potential to sound consonant in the right situation, which would include Dm7 G7 Cmaj7.

You can use triads or arps to add structure and interest. That way, you're not just noodling a Cmaj scale. Some people advocate specific triads over specific chords, generally to try to better outline the changes in the course of the solo. That way, the audience hears a certain relationship between the solo's melody and the chords. If you search this forum for "Warren Nunes" there are some threads covering his approach to this material simply and effectively.

All of the above may sound pretty vanilla, but it doesn't have to. A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.

[princeplanet]

All of the above may sound pretty vanilla, but it doesn't have to. A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.

Yes, for an example of usage for "the family of 4" - see Sheryl Bailey on Bebop Dojo. It's basically related arp fragments up, and bebop scale fragments down. It's kinda Bebop 101...

[fep]

Chords (most chords) are built in 3rds. Just keep on trucking (up in thirds). G B D F A C E G B. Pick the pieces, there is a G in there, a G7, a Bm7b5, a Dm, a Dm7, a F, a Fmaj7, a Am, a Am7. a C, Em. Lo and behold, every diatonic chord!

[Michael Neverisky]

A great player can make consonant notes sound great with a good melody and good rhythmic content.

I experienced this epiphany in the first few days with Jimmy Bruno's lessons.

[christianm77]

I think the thing to realise is that every diatonic note works on a dominant, but the same is not true of the I chord.

Learn to play in forward motion, that’s what separates our people who can actually play jazz from the noodlers. Not the pitch choices. The pitch choices are often pretty basic.

[whiskey02]

Cool, like that idea, will give it some thought. Thanks

Sandcatcher, I highly recommend you pick up a copy of Garrison Fewell’s book Jazz Guitar Improvisation a Melodic Approach. Here’s an idea of what you’ll get:

[rpjazzguitar]

I experienced this epiphany in the first few days with Jimmy Bruno's lessons.

I recall a video of his on JBGI where he played Bb Ionian against Bbmaj7 and sounded great. He constructed a good lick of just a few diatonic notes and played it with sizzling time.

[ragman1]

the thing to realise is that every diatonic note works on a dominant

Trouble is, you don't want to be too diatonic on a dominant :-)