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Originally Posted by Drumbler
I don't think that the kind of listening (to what others are playing) that he's describing Getz doing is a crutch or something. More like what we all should be doing...
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02-24-2019 11:28 AM
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I think I’ve seen this video before, and it occurred to me that when he is effortlessly whizzing about on all those scales applied to a tune, maybe this is something that is easier to visualise and conceive (and play) on the vibes. The layout of the bars like a giant piano keyboard must facilitate this, certainly by comparison with the guitar.
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There is a very telling moment in that video. Gary Burton is talking about a situation where you see F#-7b5 chord but you don't know what scale to play over that chord type (starts around 12:58 or so). He says well there is F# you can play that and listen may be you'll hear some other notes others play (the context is, you do this in the moment to save the day but then go home and learn it properly).
So this seems to indicate that in CST approach when you see an F#-7b5 chord you either can shred Locrian #9 scale because you worked on that chord or you have zero clue as to what notes might be in that chord other than the root? How about a b5 or a min 3rd or a min7?
I know it looks like I'm making a strawman argument. But I think this is a true philosophical difference between the CST approach vs "master playing around the chord tones first" approach. In CST something like F#-7b5 is seen more as a label for a scale or a set of possible scales rather than 3 defining intervals (b3, b3, 3). It's associated with certain scale sounds.
Obviously Gary Burton or other people who use this approach understand what chords are as well as people who don't use CST. But the mental approach is to associate chords with scale sounds, instead of explicitly think of the defining chord tones they are made of.
I'm not disagreeing with people who like this approach. I do think it is an interesting way of looking at things. I realize that I even think that way some times. It's sort of there in parallel with everything else. Although I do think it's a more advanced way of looking at things. It comes with some experience as a generalization (or abstraction) of chord tone based thinking. Therefore I have doubts about it being a "getting started" topic.
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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I consider myself 'intermediate' (aren't we all in some sense?), not professional, so I'm not sure how you'd rate my opinion. I'd say spend 25-50% of your practice time on technique, scales, arpeggios, chords etc.. It's something you have to get down, and all the theory is in there once you have the sounds down. Spend the rest of your time having fun, learning tunes etc. I started learning tunes and transcribing some years back, without some strong fundamental technique and knowledge, and I wish I hadn't looking back.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
He actually keeps things much simpler than what you're describing though. His point throughout is basically that there aren't dozens and dozens of options for playing over that chord, (plain Locrian is probably his starting point I'd think. He never mentioned Locrian sharp 2) and regardless of how you go about it, you're going to arrive at that place. If you go home and practice "chord tones add the notes which sound good with them", you're going to end up with his more set anyway.
You can try to reinvent the wheel or whatever, but the music has basic traditions.
I never heard him say anything about NOT playing chord tones or not focusing on them, other than maybe mentioning that you also have to know what OTHER notes go with them. He did say a WHOLE LOT about working to get PAST the point of having to consciously think of pitch collections as quickly as possible. Everything he's talking about seems to me to be agreeing with basically BOTH sides of the "pure ear" versus "thinking in modes" "debate" that I always hear.
I think we mostly think about all of these things the wrong way. Burton is an ear guy. Started that way and continues to talk about things basically that way while reconciling descriptions of things with the way I've heard players talk about things in describing pitch collections which others might describe as CST.
Did anyone watch the entire video, like when he's talking to the horn player about some wrong notes etc? It's not an overly theoretical discussion. He's saying that you have to work out which notes sounds good one way or another, so that you can get PAST all of that and simply start making music.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
So Burton played successfully and well by ear first and later learned all the theory and CST which allowed him to explain it?
This is very interesting to me. The chicken or the egg. What came first?
What Burton (and Getz) did was ear first, theory later (or not ever in the case Getz and scales?). Current jazz education is the opposite it appears to me. I've never been to Berkley so that is for others to comment about.
I also found interesting his approach to ear training which was to play a corresponding scale (note collection) over a chord until it becomes recognized by the ear/brain. Example: Dorian played over iim chord. This sounds so obvious but most people don't practice this way, i.e. focusing on the way the scale and chord combination sounds.
Per Burton, Getz played the same way (by ear), LISTENING to the other players, and harmonizing with them. How novel and radical!
Getz actually listened to his fellow musicians while playing! Astounding.
Unfortunately Getz never embraced CST and learned the names of the 10-12 magic scales. For shame, Mr. Getz!
Stan was too busy getting high probably. Heroin is a bad drug.
Did Burton become a jazz snob when he learned the note collections in the 10-12 required jazz scales?
Now, what do we take away from this video?
Well, use your ears is one thing. You can play good jazz without theory but you can't play good jazz without using your ears.
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Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Teaching a starting jazz student CST is like a driving instructor explaining how the internal combustion engine works.
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Originally Posted by christianm77
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Originally Posted by SandChannel
The second point I hadn't considered, but it's a good one. The performing musician is more concerned with real world applications than deep theory. 'You can do this', 'here's a situation' 'try this' not so much 'this is how harmony works.'
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Originally Posted by grahambop
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Learning the major scale is very useful. The modes of the major then makes sense as they are just the major scale but from different starting positions. Understanding ii V I or 2 5 1 or whatever you want to call it is very useful. However don't put off just playing tunes and melodies. I spent far too long trying to understand jazz, and in fact I think it is much better to listen copy and play, then the theory can inform rather than drive the musical process.
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The real book came to the library today. Gonna get it at my lunchbreak.
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"How much theory" is only half of the question. The other half is "how can you connect the theory". Like can you play your scale fluently and land on a desired chord. And vice versa. Do you know how the scale degrees sound against each chord you know. That sort of stuff..
And the third half of the question is how can you use the theory when actually playing a tune.
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Originally Posted by emanresu
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try for autumn leaves
5x555x for aminor7
5x451x for D7
and your G chord looks good.
The A train tab is in C, I didn't check to see if it's accurate though.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
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Originally Posted by AlexMalmis
The chords weren't wrong so much as they're chords not used in playing jazz. There's thousands of ways to play each chord, and that's the good thing. That's where you can get creative.
The chords I gave you are standard beginner jazz chords.
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Originally Posted by joe2758
Ohh okay the chords I was using I learnt from a begginer course not begginer jazz course so yeah...
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Originally Posted by AlexMalmis
Getting hung up on rhythms when transcribing
Today, 11:59 AM in Ear Training, Transcribing & Reading