Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Posts 1 to 50 of 93
  1. #1

    User Info Menu

    Hey folks,

    I posted this in improvisation, but maybe this is a better spot for it.

    I'm taking a stab at transcribing Milt Jackson's vibes solo on Bag's Groove (take 1). This solo has a lot of classic bebop vocabulary I'd really like to study and get into my playing. There's a little line that happens in the first chorus that I love the sound of, but don't know how to analyze, so it's hard to understand what the concept is so I can use it myself.

    It's in bar 6 of a 12 bar blues where the IV is going back to I (the tune is in F, so Bb to F in this case). He plays and eighth note line that goes | C (then down an octave) E F G Ab Bb B D | C F A...

    So the end is perfectly clear that he's playing an F major arpeggio as the harmony lands back on the I chord. I'm having trouble hearing what chord or scale the preceding measure is though. All those notes make up an E (G, Bb or Db) half-whole diminished scale. But I'm not sure I understand the theory behind this... wouldn't this be implying an E7, G7, Bb7, or Db7? I would understand a C7 going to the F, or a tritone sub for a Gb going to F, or an Eb7 going to F, but this is kind of throwing me for a loop. Should I look at it as an E7 going to F as a kind of half step thing?

    If you want to hear it, it's at about 3:46ish in the recording.

    Thanks!

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

    User Info Menu

    "Learn the repertoire. It’s all in the songs. If you learn 200 songs, you will have no problem improvising."
    Frank Vignola

  4. #3

    User Info Menu

    He's playing the line over a Bº7 chord and using a diminished run. E, F, G, Ab, Bb, B, D are all notes from the B diminished scale. The notes on the downbeat are F, Ab and B. The Bº7 is related to the Bb7(b9) which is another way of approaching bar 6 in a blues. The F, Ab and B make the 5th, b7th and b9th of that chord.

  5. #4

    User Info Menu

    Do you mean this solo?

    To be honest, we always assume these guys are so masterful they really mean every note they play and never get it wrong! Well, if we do assume that, I'd plump for the idea that he was thinking bar 6 is where a blues often sticks in a diminished chord - Bo in this case - and the natural B and D outline that... but who really knows what he was thinking?

    Help analyzing a line from Bag's Groove-1-1c90feac77-jpg

  6. #5

    User Info Menu

    I like Bdim explanation that setemupjoe offered

    Also it is the case where I prefere to take it simple...

    It's melodic chromatic appogiatura around C... Bnat - D - C on the beat... it is as old as music is probably

    I call it 'evasion' - in my opinion one of the most typical technique of construction of jazz melodies in impro: trying constantly to avoid the chord tone ... (and trying not to repeat anything) it may be very complex in relation to beats and mesearues and harmony (as it may imply sub's chord tone for example or an extention), but basically it it - an evasion... something is meant to be there and it is evaded and postponed and that moves the story on a bit...


    PS

    the whole Bdim chord is appogiatura to C...

  7. #6

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mjgp3 View Post
    ... It's in bar 6 of a 12 bar blues where the IV is going back to I (the tune is in F, so Bb to F in this case). He plays and eighth note line that goes | C (then down an octave) E F G Ab Bb B D | C F A...
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Do you mean this solo?

    Help analyzing a line from Bag's Groove-1-1c90feac77-jpg
    If I read correctly, in that transcription the line is: E, F, G, Ab, A, B, D
    ^ ^ ^
    <<< My BlogSpot Page >>>
    v v v

  8. #7
    Thank you all for chiming in. The Bdim explanation makes the most sense and clicked with me as soon as I read it so thanks! And yes, I was working off of that transcription originally too, but it's wrong in a lot of spots, including that run I'm talking about... I'm almost certain that the A should be Bb.

    While I have you all here, in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7... it's a Dbmaj7 arpeggio and then a little triplet on D Eb D. Is it right to think of that as an arpeggio off of the b9 of C (b9, 11, 13, 1) and the triplet is is going 9 #9 9, or is there some other substitution happening that might get you this as well? Thanks for the help!

  9. #8

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mjgp3 View Post

    While I have you all here
    heh heh :-)

    in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7...
    I've no idea where it comes from. It could be borrowed from C Phrygian or Locrian but I don't see that actually helps. I do know that was favourite trick of George Benson's, to put in the M7 a half-step above the dominant (as opposed to Db melodic minor, the C altered scale). The D in the other notes might just be chromatic.

    I think the Db B in bar 22 (going to C) is an enclosure.

    Best I can do.

  10. #9

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by mjgp3 View Post
    Thank you all for chiming in. The Bdim explanation makes the most sense and clicked with me as soon as I read it so thanks! And yes, I was working off of that transcription originally too, but it's wrong in a lot of spots, including that run I'm talking about... I'm almost certain that the A should be Bb.

    While I have you all here, in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7... it's a Dbmaj7 arpeggio and then a little triplet on D Eb D. Is it right to think of that as an arpeggio off of the b9 of C (b9, 11, 13, 1) and the triplet is is going 9 #9 9, or is there some other substitution happening that might get you this as well? Thanks for the help!
    Alt dom sound... it is right to think anything if it works and us convenient as a tool.

    Also Db is dominant to F# and F# is triton sub for C

  11. #10

    User Info Menu

    Thank you all for chiming in. The Bdim explanation makes the most sense and clicked with me as soon as I read it so thanks! And yes, I was working off of that transcription originally too, but it's wrong in a lot of spots, including that run I'm talking about... I'm almost certain that the A should be Bb.
    Regarding this first line you asked about... now I got my hand on guitar...

    first of all you are absolutely correct it is Bb (not A as in the sheet)...

    I like the idea of B diminished..

    But I would rather say now actually that it is F diminished... I just hear this Fdim sound here.
    For me the charasteristic pitches here are Bnat (b5) nat and Dnat (6) against F minor. You hear what I mean?
    (for me in general diminished scale sound is variation of melodic minor)

    It could be more of a B halfdim if it were A as it is in the sheet..

    Yes Fdim and Bdim is enharmonic but...

    The thing is when I play it can strongly hear the harmonic movement behind it and relation to some 'root'.
    When I play it I hear stron presence of F as root in this line..
    And if I try to refer to B as a root - the Bdim is not really convincing ...
    it would make rather a half-diminished.. - a different function and harmonic sound.. probably this is where the 'correction' in the transcribed sheet comes from.. the transcriber was not focused enough and adjusted it to his hearing of harmony intuitively.

    I think it is fun to have these two absolutely different routes through changing just one note in a line!


    PS
    basically it is just minor blues in F.. but it's probably not an explanation.
    also it fits Barry Harris Idim idea I believe...
    Last edited by Jonah; 12-05-2018 at 02:35 AM.

  12. #11

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Alt dom sound...
    It's not. I thought it was at first too but I had to think again. It's not the C alt scale, it's a M7 (Db major, not minor). That's borrowed from C phrygian (Ab) or C locrian (Db).

    Unless anything non-diatonic is called altered...which it obviously is. In any case, I don't think worrying about where it comes from matters - unless one's doing some academic exam or something. The idea is to play it and what to do with it.

  13. #12

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    It's not. I thought it was at first too but I had to think again. It's not the C alt scale, it's a M7 (Db major, not minor). That's borrowed from C phrygian (Ab) or C locrian (Db).

    Unless anything non-diatonic is called altered...which it obviously is. In any case, I don't think worrying about where it comes from matters - unless one's doing some academic exam or something. The idea is to play it and what to do with it.

    It is... i did not refer to a scale but a sound (as I wrote actually).
    I can hear alt dom sound.. it can be produced by different means... usually it is two altered extentions or chord tones... but sometimes even one is enough.
    (Above I wrote that in some context I hear diminished chord as and altered sound over minor).

    I think it depends much on style - in old styles it was enough to have a general alt sound in later more modern styles it became more specific and it makes difference which altereation is used.
    It makes difference as semantic elements of music.. it is a different charachter, colour, accent, meaning...

    So here I definitely hear altered dom sound...
    and if I get into it and check why.. I see Dbmaj7 arpeggio in realtion to C7 has root-b9-11-b13

    I do not like borrowing explanation here that you give just because I cannot hear it in music.. I should hear the tool in ontext - otherwise it is just abstracy... (but sometimes I begin to hear some elements that I did not distinguish before as specific - so I do not deny that for someone it may work)


    Another idea that I laltely became more and more strict about: scales are really good tool when the music is scalar... why it took me years to understand it - and seemingly to come back to what I started from just from different perspective I do not know... but when the line has perdominantly scalar structure I think it can be really important to refer to scale, it helps...
    And when is built on chord tones predominantly - for me it often makes more sence to refer to chord...

    That is I began to deferetiate chords and scales as theorectic tools...


    The two examples here are representing both: 1) it is more scalar for me becuase it is not only diminished chord but it is linear diminished scale that makes the movement here
    2) reference to scale makes no sense in real context for me.. but harmonic is really referntial here

  14. #13

    User Info Menu

    Of course it's an altered dominant sound. Any non-diatonic notes over a dominant chord will give an altered sound by definition. But that wasn't the point.

  15. #14

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Of course it's an altered dominant sound. Any non-diatonic notes over a dominant chord will give an altered sound by definition. But that wasn't the point.


    Not any... I do not manipulate definitions, I describe hearing.

    And this is the only point that makes sense about music.

    Again you do the same thing.. drowning thread into mileading and abstract comments...

  16. #15

    User Info Menu

    What a great solo from Milt Jackson. Regarding the Dbmaj7 over the C7, I don’t mind the analysis, just stole that one. Thank you

  17. #16

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Not any... I do not manipulate definitions, I describe hearing.

    And this is the only point that makes sense about music.

    Again you do the same thing.. drowning thread into mileading and abstract comments...
    No, Jonah, the OP asked for an analysis. Normally I wouldn't bother, I don't see the point of it except as an academic exercise, but that's what he asked for.

    in bars 10 and 22, he plays almost the exact same line over a C7... it's a Dbmaj7 arpeggio and then a little triplet on D Eb D. Is it right to think of that as an arpeggio off of the b9 of C (b9, 11, 13, 1) and the triplet is is going 9 #9 9, or is there some other substitution happening that might get you this as well? Thanks for the help!
    None of it is misleading or abstract, it was an accurate analysis of the notes in front of us. By saying it's 'just an altered dominant sound' is simply stating the obvious and doesn't answer his question.

    Anyway, whatever you say :-)

  18. #17

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    What a great solo from Milt Jackson. Regarding the Dbmaj7 over the C7, I don’t mind the analysis, just stole that one. Thank you
    Like I said before, that was one of George Benson's moves, to put in the M7 a half above the dominant. Can't remember when I saw it though.

  19. #18

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Like I said before, that was one of George Benson's moves, to put in the M7 a half above the dominant. Can't remember when I saw it though.
    That’s a nice move. Seem that Milt had the trick long before Benson (probably others too). It’s not that of a big difference in sound between the melodic minor at the same position, but it does sound refreshing.

  20. #19

    User Info Menu

    Well, everyone steals everything. Milt probably borrowed it from somewhere too. But somebody somewhere in the mists of time thought of it first...

  21. #20

    User Info Menu

    incidentally, not too long ago I was scratching my head over this Barry Harris line:

    Help analyzing a line from Bag's Groove-barry-harris-tritone-line-png

    I think Barry would have called this a tritone line. But this F natural doesn't really fit the tritone of C7.
    But now I see this fit nicely on that Benson-Jackson trick!
    This line illustrate Dbmaj more than anything else, isn't it?

    Cheers,
    T.

  22. #21

    User Info Menu

    Could be, could be...

  23. #22

    User Info Menu

    think Barry would have called this a tritone line. But this F natural doesn't really fit the tritone of C7.
    But now I see this fit nicely on that Benson-Jackson trick!
    This line illustrate Dbmaj more than anything else, isn't it?
    It can be secondary dominant to C7.. which is G7 and Db is triton to that.. I am not sure how he would explaine but as much as I lnow of his appraoch he would not use Dbmaj7 arp half-step above explanation...

  24. #23

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    It can be secondary dominant to C7.. which is G7 and Db is triton to that.. I am not sure how he would explaine but as much as I lnow of his appraoch he would not use Dbmaj7 arp half-step above explanation...
    If I need to guess, I think Barry would say that the F natural note belong to C7 and the rest of the notes belong to Gb7. So that’s like running C7 into its tritone.

  25. #24

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by tamirgal View Post
    If I need to guess, I think Barry would say that the F natural note belong to C7 and the rest of the notes belong to Gb7. So that’s like running C7 into its tritone.
    If I remember correctly C7, Eb7,Gb7,A7 are relative dominant chords through common diminished chord in his system ('brithers and sisters' he calls it?)

  26. #25

    User Info Menu

    Right

  27. #26

    User Info Menu

    Notice how the Bo7 chord tones are on the beat, except for the enclosure of C

    ' E F G Ab Bb B D | C F A

    The important thing about bebop is to know what notes are harmonic, and which notes aren't. E G and Bb are not important to the harmony. They are just filler to make the line work rhythmically. In this case they work well with the melodic contour, but if we were to exchange them for the diatonic notes of C minor 6th-dim, say:

    Wouldn't drastically alter the sense of the line

    ' Eb F G Ab A B D | C F A

    It's like in hand drumming - you have accents and ghost notes.

  28. #27

    User Info Menu

    Christian,

    as much as I like this explanation (very barryharris-like))) I still hear the difference... and very strong difference

    Wouldn't drastically alter the sense of the line

    ' Eb F G Ab A B D | C F A
    to my ear it changes it quite a lot...
    I wrote above why. post#10

    But suppose that it depends on what the ear is focused on more..

  29. #28

    User Info Menu

    Yeah I agree actually - bad example.

    I do think that move Bo7 --> F, really suits a diminished scale sound. More so than a functional V-I sub dim, like Eo7 or something

  30. #29

    User Info Menu

    He's just playing a Bo7 arpeggio but approaching each chord tone by a semi tone below, or just playing the scale.

  31. #30

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    He's just playing a Bo7 arpeggio but approaching each chord tone by a semi tone below, or just playing the scale.
    approaching each note by a semitone and playing the scale are different ways ... I think... even if the notes are the same.

    Anyway for me it does not sound like 'approaching by semi-tone' thing... epecially considering it is C7 behind it..

  32. #31

    User Info Menu

    I still hear it as F dim - as much altered Fminor... I will dare say even it altered IVm to C...

    by the way C7 is dominant to F but F7 is subdominant to C...

    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..

  33. #32

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    approaching each note by a semitone and playing the scale are different ways ... I think... even if the notes are the same.

    Anyway for me it does not sound like 'approaching by semi-tone' thing... epecially considering it is C7 behind it..
    But the notes that land on the beat are F, Ab, B.

  34. #33

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    I still hear it as F dim - as much altered Fminor... I will dare say even it altered IVm to C...

    by the way C7 is dominant to F but F7 is subdominant to C...

    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..
    He is playing Bo7 clear as day. If he was playing ivm he would have played a C not a B.

  35. #34

    User Info Menu

    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.

  36. #35

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.
    What?

    He is playing a Bo/Fo whatever you wanna call it.

    Why would he play a Bo before an F? Well because the chords of the blues go from Bo to F at that same exact point he is playing the Bo and resolving it to F.

    You said so yourself in a previous post, with the transcription of the solo.

  37. #36

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1 View Post
    Bo?

    A Bo would sound like a diminished thing and it doesn't. It's true the notes are from the Bo scale but that doesn't mean much. Not only that, why would he play a Bo before the F? He might play a Bb or C# dim to mimic C7b9 but he isn't.

    The notes in that clip are straight from a Bbm pentatonic, ii of Eb7, which is the backdoor to F.
    Blues in F uses a Bb7 in bar 5 and often uses B° in bar 6. Bar 7 would be F/C moving to the D7 in bar 8.

  38. #37

    User Info Menu

    He is playing Bo7 clear as day. If he was playing ivm he would have played a C not a B.
    I did not say F minor triad... I said F minor sound - as opposite to major .. I wrote F dim - it is enharmonic to Bdim but I think different root matters

    PS
    I was mistaken about C7 behind , the harmony goes Bb of course

  39. #38

    User Info Menu

    Just to explain better


  40. #39

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by don_oz View Post
    What?

    He is playing a Bo/Fo whatever you wanna call it.

    Why would he play a Bo before an F? Well because the chords of the blues go from Bo to F at that same exact point he is playing the Bo and resolving it to F.

    You said so yourself in a previous post, with the transcription of the solo.
    A blues uses diminished transitions between dominants, not a V-I. And if it was C7 - F7 it wouldn't be Bo anyway.

    If I said so before it was because there were two questions from the OP. This is the second and I haven't addressed it before now.

  41. #40

    User Info Menu

    In any case, as I often keep saying, how do we know he even meant to play those exact notes at all? It's right in the middle of a solo, maybe they just tripped off his fingers. Maybe if he saw everyone desperately trying to analyse four or five notes he can't even remember playing he'd be laughing himself silly.

    Or pity us.

  42. #41

    User Info Menu

    Anyway, forget all that. Record C7 - F (not F7) and play Bbm pentatonic over the C7. Bingo. Try it and see. Probably works even better using the Ab maj scale. Just as good.

    Bb mel minor is perfect but not what Milt was doing.

    (And then play B/D/F/Ab dim. Complete rubbish. The Bbo would work but it sounds like a diminished run... and the OP's clip DOES NOT, it sounds like an altered run. That's the point)

  43. #42

    User Info Menu

    n any case, as I often keep saying, how do we know he even meant to play those exact notes at all? It's right in the middle of a solo, maybe they just tripped off his fingers. Maybe if he saw everyone desperately trying to analyse four or five notes he can't even remember playing he'd be laughing himself silly.
    Just in btwen of it all.. I never care about what the player/author/composer meant or thought litterally... when I say 'he thought' - I mean only the music as expretion of mentality and personality... whhat he really though (and what is thinking for him in genral) does not matter anything in that case...
    'we doubt the speaker, not the toungue we hear'

  44. #43

    User Info Menu

    And if it was C7
    It was Bb...

    don_oz means Bb7 - Bo - F/C...

    But whatever..

  45. #44

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah View Post
    Why subdominant is never a discussion in jazz? Blues is all about subdoninant being dominant and vice versa..
    Is it not?

    Bb7-->F is just as important as C7-->F in terms of the blues, as you say.

  46. #45

    User Info Menu

    Bo7 is movement to F/C.

    Bbm is also.

    It's just GUBBINS.

  47. #46

    User Info Menu

    I don't know what you're all talking about. I think you're trying to bend the fact to fit the theory.

  48. #47

    User Info Menu


  49. #48

    User Info Menu

    Not wrong.

  50. #49

    User Info Menu

    I am kind of losing this thread...

  51. #50

    User Info Menu

    gubbins!!!
    White belt
    My Youtube