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Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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08-26-2018 07:34 AM
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I think you’ve hit on a slightly unusual chord which nevertheless sounds quite agreeable on the guitar. But chord naming is always potentially a bit of a mess and this one falls foul of that. I do use this chord sometimes in a quartal sequence when I’m trying to go all McCoy Tyner, but I see why just calling it ‘quartal’ is not that helpful in your context.
I would be inclined to say something like C7sus4 (add 10) maybe? Not ideal but at least the 10 suggests the 3rd should be an octave up from the sus note. Pianists talk about tenths a lot so I don’t see why guitarists shouldn’t.
Saying add 3 might suggest you want one of those weird ‘Rush’ chords where the 3rd is right next to the 4th. (A friend of mine once was really into Rush and it sounded to me like every single tune was composed of those chords!)
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Lionel, was there a specific reason for posting the Schoenberg youtube clips?
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I'm with you here on all points, thank for your comment. I honestly think something involving the 10 is actually the least ambiguous considering how the terminology works, but to the best of my knowledge and experience nobody would know what the hell I meant unless I explained it or wrote out a few voicings anyway. But intellectually and pedagogically I'd be very comfortable with '10' in this context becoming a common way of communicating the sound. Originally Posted by grahambop
Although chord naming in general is really tricky, in this specific case I feel like it's not a stretch for their to be a reasonable symbol/name for it, as our chord naming system uses thirds as its backbone, and this chord is actually build in thirds, it just skips the 3 itself the 'first' time: 1 5 b7 9 11 13 1 3
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How about "C11 no 3 but 3 again later" ?
(no no no, very much kidding...)
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Jake -
You're obviously not familiar with some of my crazy chord-melody efforts! I've no objection whatsoever to interesting and strange sounds, but I wouldn't try to attach sensible standard chord names to them.
Here's one:
x46506
Whatddya call that then?
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Yes, only if you listen and read about it. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
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Sus chords resolved to something with a 3rd in jazz til April of 1966.
Now when I see sus on a chart, I figure the third is fair game. People get way to hung up on exact chord naming...they need to spend more time understanding what a chord name implies.
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haha yes, thank you. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
In general I might agree. But Jeff hopefully by now you know me, you know my playing, and hopefully you trust that there's a more nuanced reason for wanting to name this sound, AND that I completely understand how it's used, right? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Oh I get that you do...not sure of others...
On a chart, simply writing 7sus above the staff and putting the 3rd as the melody below on the staff would be the clearest way imho. Other than that, I like the 10ths idea...I do think it's language guitar players should use.
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Re: Schoenberg, if there is a specific point very relevant to this discussion that has to do with Schoenberg's music or history, I'd be very interested to hear what it is. Without further direction or explanation, I see no reason to invest time into any personal research. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
Please drop this. Originally Posted by Lionelsax
Please man, stay on topic here, and try to have the intent to be helpful or contribute positively to the discussion. Don't be that guy. Feel free to start a separate thread about quartal harmony if it's a subject you'd like to discuss.
When people use forums in this way it can really drive members away. We're discussing how to categorize a certain sound, your suggestion of quartal harmony has been acknowledged many times. I responded above in great detail why it's not relevant to my particular issue. Rather than responding to those points you've just posted a random youtube link.
Please either add something useful to the conversation or leave the space uncluttered so others feel comfortable sharing their input on the issue.
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Jake : Hey ! Today I mixed hot water with cold water ! Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Lionel : Good, it's warm water ! Congratulations !
Jake : No, I mixed hot water and cold water ! How can you name this ?
Lionel : Warm water.
Jake : This water is hotter than the cold one, and colder than the hot one... How can you name it ?
Lionel : I just say you're a genius.
End of the conversation.
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All right...trying to be civil and relatively polite here...you're responding with youtube links and a script for a play insulting me. Sorry Lionel, you're going on "ignore". Never meant any offense towards you in any post here, just trying to discuss a specific sound. Best of luck in your playing and studying... Originally Posted by Lionelsax
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Obviously a lot of sounds are difficult to name, especially ones that have multiple half steps in a row in their spelling, like that one (Bb, B, C, C#) Originally Posted by ragman1
Jake -
You're obviously not familiar with some of my crazy chord-melody efforts! I've no objection whatsoever to interesting and strange sounds, but I wouldn't try to attach sensible standard chord names to them.
Here's one:
x46506
Whatddya call that then?
It just should be accepted that the specific sound I'm referring to isn't some sort of bizarre dissonance or something, as Jeff said. Sure, a bunch of half steps together is difficult to name. But I think it's reasonable to have some classification of this particular sound.
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in a 7sus4 context, as long as that 3rd is higher than the sus4, and you stick to notes from mixolydian, Its all good man. Go as crazy as you want with your voicings, it doesnt have to be quartals.
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I agree with you. Just so it's clear though, the question here isn't 'can I use this' or 'when should I use this' or 'in what way should I use this.' But I agree with you. Originally Posted by joel paul
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Re. x46506 Originally Posted by JakeAcci
Actually that chord was the first chord, after the pick-up, of Chelsea Bridge, moved from Db to D. It's a rootless E7#5/C# with the #11 (Bb) melody note on top.
Luckily no one was going to shoot me if I didn't get the name right. And I don't think anyone will shoot you either.
Except Lionel maybe
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wat do you call a sus chord that turns water into wine
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haha Originally Posted by ragman1
I think when dissonances like that happen in passing, it can be ok to exclude the sustained note in the name. It also obviously makes the dissonance a lot more palatable. I mean like a lot of things, if stuff gets resolved quickly it can be kind of harmonically inconsequential, kind of like approaching a chord form a half step below (which I guess is what you did?)
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Gsus Originally Posted by joe2758
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For more context, and anybody curious about why I care about this specific sound in this specific way, I just got curious the other day to list out, on a spreadsheet, all possible combinations of 1 3 5 7 9 11 13 we might get that could still be considered a "7th chord" essentially.
List included, to start:
- 1 3 5 7
- 1 3 5 7 9
- 1 3 5 7 9 11
- 1 3 5 7 11
- 1 3 5 7 9 11 13
- 1 3 5 7 11 13
- 1 3 5 7 13
- 1 3 5 7 9 13
So no 6th chords, no add9, no chords with omissions needed in title ("Gmaj7no3,") etc just covering basic tertial stuff
and of course doing this you get lots of things things that aren't really used, like minmaj7b9#11b13
why am I listing these? sometimes I just like organizing things then after some exploration I find utility later. It's not a direct "I will do X to get Y result" kind of activity
I am well aware doing this activity will not directly
- make me improvise better
- make me a better arranger
- make people want to come to my gigs or buy my records
- make more people want to hire me as a sideman.
So I know that, so we don't need to get into some debates about practicality - let's just accept that I understand it's completely impractical, for now, but I often get into these organizational projects and then see benefit later - and I also just enjoy it, find it gratifying.
Anyway, back to the list.
Obviously a lot gets excluded, like I said, it is not an exhaustive list of all possible chords.
However, I feel like 7sus4 is such a 'type' of 7th chord even though it's technically not built in thirds, it just felt appropriate to include it and organize it. It's a bit arbitrary I know, because I could have also made an exception for 6th chords, or 6/9 chords, or extended chords that have no 7, etc. But I felt like for my purposes including 7sus4 was reasonable.
part of the reason I think it's reasonable is because I do feel like you can think of a 7sus4 chord in stacked thirds - as long as the 5th is natural and the 7th is flat, we just get things out of order: 1 5 b7 9 11 13 (1) 3. You can pull the same levers of adjusting other tones, just looking at it a different way. The other reason to include it is just how common it is when you're dealing with these other types.
Again, this project does not have direct relationship to how well I play or anything like that, so if the response to this comment is that this is a useless project, I'm not going to argue that. But I guess as John Lennon said "time you enjoy wasting is never wasted time."
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Originally Posted by joe2758
the suspension was killing me Originally Posted by joe2758
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It wasn't that much in passing. CB is a slow tune and that chord fills the whole of the first bar. Originally Posted by JakeAcci
But shouldn't we be arguing that the chord is an E13b6 with the 13 in the bass (no root)?
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