Super Locrian Scale

[Static_Gaze]

Hello, I'm wondering if anyone can tell me why it's called, "Super Locrian"? I know that this scale is also called 'Altered', and 'diminished whole-tone'. But is there a reason for 'super' Locrian?

Thanks!

[mike walker]

A locrian scale has everything flattened but the 4th. The formula is R b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. Super locrian goes one more, R b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7. If ya now flat the root ya get another maj scale. So i guess that would be a super dooper scale!!

[derek]

Super Locrian is the "offical" name of the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale. It is called the alted scale some because it contains the most important alterations (b5, #5, b9, #9) used with altered dominant chords.

Since it has all those alterations, it is frequently used over altered dominants, hence the shorted name, the altered scale. A quick look at the way it lines up will give you an idea of why it is also referred to as the diminished whole tone scale.

[guelda]

A locrian scale has everything flattened but the 4th. The formula is R b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7. Super locrian goes one more, R b2 b3 b4 b5 b6 b7. If ya now flat the root ya get another maj scale. So i guess that would be a super dooper scale!!

Great answer Mike, I never thought of it like that !
(well, maybe 'cause I don't really use this scale, shame on me...too modern maybe)

[mr. beaumont]

sounds great over an altered dominant, guelda...try it

i just think melodic minor up a half step usually, so over a Galt i'll play an Ab melodic minor

Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, G: which gives me

b9, #9, 3, b5, #5, b7, R over the G alt.

[Static_Gaze]

Hmmm...I'm not sure if anyone's given me the answer I'm looking for, I understand the super locrian having a b4, but I don't think that really explains why it's called 'super', a thought has occurred to me; maybe it's called 'super' because it starts on the 'supertonic'? I dunno, what do you guys think??

Also, how would I go about naming a chord where the root is played twice but one is flattened? Like : B D# A C# G Bb.

[mike walker]

supertonic is the 2nd degree not the 7th. I refer my honourable friend to the answer i gave a few moments ago. Also the chord given is pretty weird, 2 semitones next to each other, A Bb B. If B is the root then the Bb which should be called Asharp is a maj7th. A name for the chord you have spelled out could be B9b13addMaj7th. Ouch!!

[Jazzarian]

Super Locrian is the "offical" name of the 7th mode of the melodic minor scale.

Now that sure is a much better way of conveying it than the other explanations I've seen here.

Basically it's one of those minor on the bottom, major on the top, sounding scales. It might be useful in passing, nothing I'd use for any great length.
Yes, it would be good over a diminished chord, but even a whole tone scale would sound good over a dim.

[mike walker]

The fact that Super locrian is the official name of the 7th mode of the melodic min scale is not the answer to the question posed. It is the 7th mode but the question was why 'super'? 'might be useful in passing' is just funny. It's used primarily over an altered chord such as G7sharp5 or sharp 9 etc etc. Whole tone scale over diminished is not that great as a rule but it does have its own energy because of its symmetry so could work.

[guelda]

sounds great over an altered dominant, guelda...try it

i just think melodic minor up a half step usually, so over a Galt i'll play an Ab melodic minor

Ab, Bb, B, Db, Eb, F, G: which gives me

b9, #9, 3, b5, #5, b7, R over the G alt.

Yeah I have seen that sometimes and already tried some "licks" that
sounds indeed really cool, kinda Wes style (to me), but playing the scale
"as it is" (I mean without... "breaking" it) on a 7th chord doesn't sound
so good to my hear, I don't know what you think about this. I heard this
is normal and typical of this use of this scale, so you have to practice
and find your own "licks" (the word is not well chosen, licks are not an
aim for a musician of course).

But for the moment, I'm mostly playing Django style stuff and the sound
created by the use of this scale doesn't really fit with it. I don't say this
shouldn't be used, Bireli, Wawau Adler, and more modern Gypsy players
use it, but when they do it sounds modern, not typical of this style
('cause Django didn't use it, as far as I know).

Anyway, I agree I should work on it, 'cause I love Wes too

By the way, does anyone know who is (are) the first to make systematic
use of this scale, or conceptualized it ? Just curious.

have swing
Guelda

[Jazzarian]

The fact that Super locrian is the official name of the 7th mode of the min scale is not the answer to the question posed. It is the 7th mode but the question was why 'super'? 'might be useful in passing' is just funny. It's used primarily over an altered chord such as G7sharp5 or sharp 9 etc etc. Whole tone scale over diminished is not that great as a rule but it does have its own energy because of its symmetry so could work.

"just funny" you say?

Then you go on to say:
"It's used primarily over an altered chord such as G7sharp5 or sharp 9 etc etc"


Yeah, someone is bound to solo over 64 bars over a G7+. You must have a strange sense of humor. Let me guess, Ornette Coleman is a hero of yours?

[gravitas]

Jazzarian, I might recommend the works of one Alan Blaylock, a modern big-band swing composer. Particularly one of his "hits" (or as much of a hit as you can have in Jazz) titled "Two Seconds to Midnight." There is a solo section in there, actually, that features a guitar solo on a 64-bar vamp over a b9 chord, and it's absolutely ball-rattling (in a good way!)

I might also recommend the album Polytown by David Torn, though your interest in fusion probably mandates that you have this one already. Regardless, it features mostly altered harmony, and could do with a little dusting off.

[mr. beaumont]

Yeah I have seen that sometimes and already tried some "licks" that
sounds indeed really cool, kinda Wes style (to me), but playing the scale
"as it is" (I mean without... "breaking" it) on a 7th chord doesn't sound
so good to my hear, I don't know what you think about this. I heard this
is normal and typical of this use of this scale, so you have to practice
and find your own "licks" (the word is not well chosen, licks are not an
aim for a musician of course).

But for the moment, I'm mostly playing Django style stuff and the sound
created by the use of this scale doesn't really fit with it. I don't say this
shouldn't be used, Bireli, Wawau Adler, and more modern Gypsy players
use it, but when they do it sounds modern, not typical of this style
('cause Django didn't use it, as far as I know).

Anyway, I agree I should work on it, 'cause I love Wes too

By the way, does anyone know who is (are) the first to make systematic
use of this scale, or conceptualized it ? Just curious.

have swing
Guelda

i'm sure django knew his altered chord arpeggios, though, and we're looking at the same pool of notes...

i try to make it a point in my playing NOT to play a scale in order for too long...makes your playing sound like an exercise.

[mike walker]

'just passing' i can't take seriously jazzarian. Stella by starlight is one of many
standards that has 2 bars of G7sh5b9 or similar more static altered chords. Even if it's one bar in a II V I it's hardly 'passing'. The V is as important as the II and the I. The altered creates the tension that is released by the I. It doesn't have to be released as Gravitas rightly points out.

[Jazzarian]

'just passing' i can't take seriously jazzarian. Stella by starlight is one of many
standards that has 2 bars of G7sh5b9 or similar more static altered chords. Even if it's one bar in a II V I it's hardly 'passing'. The V is as important as the II and the I. The altered creates the tension that is released by the I. It doesn't have to be released as Gravitas rightly points out.

Sorry, but "tension" chords are almost always "in passing".

Now if you were to listen to my composition "East Bay B3 Blues"[tribute to Jimmy Smith] CAREFULLY, you'd hear a D11 going to a D7b5 quite often in the progression.

I am not an avid user of non-diatonic scales/modes. Only "in passing".........

BTW, I was accepted to Berklee at age 16 as a performance major. Glad I didn't go.

[Jazzarian]

Jazzarian, I might recommend the works of one Alan Blaylock, a modern big-band swing composer. Particularly one of his "hits" (or as much of a hit as you can have in Jazz) titled "Two Seconds to Midnight." There is a solo section in there, actually, that features a guitar solo on a 64-bar vamp over a b9 chord, and it's absolutely ball-rattling (in a good way!)

I might also recommend the album Polytown by David Torn, though your interest in fusion probably mandates that you have this one already. Regardless, it features mostly altered harmony, and could do with a little dusting off.

Not familiar with either actually. Hopefully neither are what I'd describe as modern metal-fusion, which I'm not wild about.

Now that Robben Ford guy, man oh man is he GOOD. Love the Dumble sound too. Is he jazz, fusion or blues?

I'm looking at the chords to my latest creation, a Wes tribute. Seems there's a few 11ths, Dom7b5s and even a mi7b5. My Brecker tribute, "Deft_afinado", features quite a bit of "chromatisim" and a few altered chords to boot too. I never knew I could play sax like that :}

[Jazzarian]

Whole tone scale over diminished is not that great as a rule but it does have its own energy because of its symmetry so could work.

It harmonizes about half the time, which makes it about as plausible as anything else in the jazz world.

[gravitas]

Not familiar with either actually. Hopefully neither are what I'd describe as modern metal-fusion, which I'm not wild about.

Now that Robben Ford guy, man oh man is he GOOD. Love the Dumble sound too. Is he jazz, fusion or blues?

I'm looking at the chords to my latest creation, a Wes tribute. Seems there's a few 11ths, Dom7b5s and even a mi7b5. My Brecker tribute, "Deft_afinado", features quite a bit of "chromatisim" and a few altered chords to boot too. I never knew I could play sax like that :}

No, not metal fusion. Metalheads having epiphanies and suddenly "knowing all of jazz" is the oldest trick in the book, and it almost always sounds like sh*t. Blaylock is more of an edgy swing composer (think Buddy Rich Big Band with some fresher harmony) and David Torn is varied. He does occasionally wander into that sort of ECM Jazz sound, which I'm not particularly fond of, but that album (w/ Terry Bozzio on drums and Mick Karn on fretless bass) is something I haven't heard before. Highly recommended.

But yeah man, Robben is in charge. He's everything.

I always loved Bill Evans' chord voicings, but my guitarist's ear could never decipher them... But I hear Bill in Robben's playing so often, and I feel like having lifted stuff from Rob I'm closer to Bill than I ever would have been.

You play sax?

[mike walker]

Hey no need to be sorry jazzarian. It's always interesting kicking these things around. Tension chords are not almost always in passing. They last usually as long as non tension chords in standard progressions as in II V I. If they are passing chords then so is the II and the I. As gravitas pointed out some progressions have altered chords for longer than a bar or 2.
As to your other point try and make a diminished chord from a wholetone scale. It.s not gonna happen. But i will grant you a wholetone will work in purely energy terms because of it's symmetry. Many people read these forums who need clear ideas and a little direction and making sweeping statements about using wholetone scales over dim chords without a little more explaination doesn't help them. I just got a dumble style amp. It rocks.

[Jazzarian]

Hey no need to be sorry jazzarian. It's always interesting kicking these things around. Tension chords are not almost always in passing. They last usually as long as non tension chords in standard progressions as in II V I. If they are passing chords then so is the II and the I. As gravitas pointed out some progressions have altered chords for longer than a bar or 2.
As to your other point try and make a diminished chord from a wholetone scale. It.s not gonna happen. But i will grant you a wholetone will work in purely energy terms because of it's symmetry. Many people read these forums who need clear ideas and a little direction and making sweeping statements about using wholetone scales over dim chords without a little more explaination doesn't help them. I just got a dumble style amp. It rocks.

What? You bought a "Dumble"? Does it say "hecho en China" inside????
Last one I saw on Ebay was kicking around for 20 grand. 5 years ago Steve Lukather was selling his on Ebay.

Some of the early Dumbles were pretty ugly, adorned with fuzzy dice material. What was Alexander thinking back then? The earliest Dumbles were made from Boogie Mark Is. I've seen one.

BTW, I am no stranger to non-diatonic scales/chords. My "Deft_afindao" tribute to Brecker being a great example. What a fine sax player I R 2 :}
Used both a Strat and the PRS on that one. Not a good candidate for an archtop.

[Jazzarian]

No, not metal fusion. Metalheads having epiphanies and suddenly "knowing all of jazz" is the oldest trick in the book, and it almost always sounds like sh*t. Blaylock is more of an edgy swing composer (think Buddy Rich Big Band with some fresher harmony) and David Torn is varied. He does occasionally wander into that sort of ECM Jazz sound, which I'm not particularly fond of, but that album (w/ Terry Bozzio on drums and Mick Karn on fretless bass) is something I haven't heard before. Highly recommended.

But yeah man, Robben is in charge. He's everything.

I always loved Bill Evans' chord voicings, but my guitarist's ear could never decipher them... But I hear Bill in Robben's playing so often, and I feel like having lifted stuff from Rob I'm closer to Bill than I ever would have been.

You play sax?

Good ol ECM, the company that brought us the Pat Metheny Group in the 70's. I wasn't much for most of the European jazz. Some Keith Jarrett stuff was good.

Never though about a Bill Evans Robben Ford connection. All I know is Robben Ford should be a household name in America.

Actually I tell the Roland GR33 how to play sax. Sure beats no sax. And I get to play unisons and harmonies, sax/guitar, with impeccable timing I might add :} Yep, tighter than horn hits by the Breckers or TOP!

Speaking of midi guitars, the new Carvin SH575 might be the ultimate swiss army knife on the planet. Beautiful jazz box too! Check dis out:
https://www.carvinguitars.com/catalo...hp?model=sh575

[mike walker]

It's a dumble 'style' amp Jazzarian. A clone. Not cheap tho. Made in sweden by a guy called Tommy cougar. Mega!! I sold my car, my dog, my aunt, and myself to get it. I hug it and call it Walter.

[Jazzarian]

It's a dumble 'style' amp Jazzarian. A clone. Not cheap tho. Made in sweden by a guy called Tommy cougar. Mega!! I sold my car, my dog, my aunt, and myself to get it. I hug it and call it Walter.

Interesting. Did you audition a Fuchs or Two Rock? Both with very nice Dumble-esque distortion. I like both very much.



BTW, some of Carlton's best tone came from a Boogie Mark I in the early 80s. Same with Robben Ford. They have a way with amps I guess.

I'm waiting for Fuchs or Two Rock to make a rackmount preamp akin to my Boogie Formula. Something a rack unit high, 5 12AX7s, $999 tops. Something designed to record straight to the boards and sound fantastic doing so. Of course, it's clean channel must be every bit as good as the distortion channel(s).

[mike walker]

I did indeed jazz. Both great amps. I actually got a 2rocks 2x12 cab with my amp. It's a very chewy vocal sound. Really beautiful. I've played boogie's for 10 years. They have been so reliable and are brilliant cranked up. I've played a 335 since i was 17. I'm keeping my boogie. Different sound. Much needed. But this clone is killer. A whole new ball game.
Live in japan, larry. A lovely live sound. Didn't he use 2 boogie's then?

[Jazzarian]

I did indeed jazz. Both great amps. I actually got a 2rocks 2x12 cab with my amp. It's a very chewy vocal sound. Really beautiful. I've played boogie's for 10 years. They have been so reliable and are brilliant cranked up. I've played a 335 since i was 17. I'm keeping my boogie. Different sound. Much needed. But this clone is killer. A whole new ball game.
Live in japan, larry. A lovely live sound. Didn't he use 2 boogie's then?

I love hearing about different sounds than the Boogie, which ironically inspired the different sounds in the first place.

I'd love to compare the IIC+ with Fuchs, Two Rock...........even a real Dumble. The Dumbles I've heard sounded a bit less compressed, with a livelier top end. Conversely Boogies tend to sound a bit more "nasal" and downright honky in the mid-range, where they smoke.

I think Carlton had a Mark I with 2 cabinets on the Live In Japan recording. What a fantastic sound from such a simplistic amp setup.


I've found my PRS Custom 24 actually goes better with Boogies than any of my Gibson solidbodies. The longer neck and uncovered pickups produce "overtones" that impart a more lively top end to the sound, and counteract the nasal character of Boogies better than Gibsons. Also, the rolloff of the PRS pickups is higher, about 7.5 Khz, vs Gibson's 5KHz rolloff.



PS: Not sure what Carlton is up to these days. "Blues wanking" is my best description. Where's the catchy tunes????? I saw some of the video with Robben Ford in Japan. More blues wanking. Geez, I was hoping for Larry and Robben to perform "Help the Poor" or something!