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That's great. You know I'm pretty anal about things. I have to know where all the notes are at all times. Not the NAMES of the notes necessarily. I mean I do but I don't consciously say, "C, E, F, G." They're just there and I both see and hear them. Those are the reference points I use when I'm singing through the changes.
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09-05-2017 02:09 PM
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I would put these questions in backward order:Question 1: "What is it?"
Question 2: "What does it do?"
Question 3: "What does it do for me?"
1. What does it do for me?
It's the simplest question to answer for me... and this is the shortest way from direct personal perception to some generalization and analyze.
2. What does it does?
I am not sure this is the question then, if it ever does something (meaning arts) it is important only what it does for me.
I do not get general 'what does it do'.. we need some personality to apply it to.
3. What is it?
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It's my sorting process:
Originally Posted by Jonah
1. "What is it?" tells me whether it's a Useful Tool, a Hazardous Obstacle - or perhaps some kind of Predatory Monster.
2. "What does it do?" tells me what sort of tool it is. Useful as certain devices may be, there are some for which I have no need, eg the temperance spoon.
3. "What does it do for me?" tells me... er... what it does for me.Last edited by destinytot; 09-05-2017 at 03:49 PM.
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All great info... the more you know, are aware of and can play, the better you'll be able to perform.
Personally... generally I comp with a lead note or line on top of voicing or chord.
I always have a tonal reference for what I'm playing.... that is... I'm always aware of what I'm playing, I'm conscious harmonically, melodically etc... aware of what I'm playing.
My simple reasoning is we generally hear the highest note(s) first. Then I voice below that note(s) with Chord Patterns that create relationships with that melody and use the tune or musical context as the reference.
Simple example
G-7 for 4 bars...
This could be simple chord pattern, the spelling of chords or voicings would be with a reference. That means in this example I would be using Gmin as my reference... The I chord.
G-7 C7 / G-7 D7/ G-7 C7/ G-7 C7/ or / I ,IV / I, V / I, IV / I, IV /
If the context,(tune) or setting was different, I would do the same thing but use a different Reference when creating the lead line and chords below that line.
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Very cool. I've been working on some reg voicings and recognize these. Out of curiosity, is this hand out a kind of thing from back in your teaching days, or is something you put together for this post? Originally Posted by Reg
I guess what I'm really asking is: do you have a stack of this stuff lying around somewhere? :-)
Anyway, I'd be interested in how you would lay out this course of study for someone in terms of priorities. I'd imagine it begins with basic diatonic and then goes to other outside harmony etc. hope all is well. Have a good weekend. all the best.
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The shapes, they're landmarks and are very useful.
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Hey Matt, I made example for post... but yes I have boxes of old teaching material.
You probably know... I always put teaching material into two parts... technique and performance. Technique includes everything with goal of improvement and understandings etc... depending on person. The performance is developing applications of using your guitar technique, musicianship, understandings... your conscious and unconscious skills to perform, again depending on person.
In the basic example above, comping, (jazz comping), The lead line, voicings. rhythm, articulations... the performance, would reflect the context, right, The tune, style, setting, the other musicians.
example... the lead line or melodic figure on top would be a Relationship and Development of the Reference, which would be the performance.
Or if someone was practicing technique for comping... I would work on organizing the lead line and chords below that lead line with organizing the style to reflect the tune. The Tune and the style being performed or practiced would be the reference for organizing the comping.
Simple example... if that G-7 is from standard, old standard, it would use nat. minor or aeolian with functional harmony as organizational approach... the Reference. And the relationships and developments would reflect that, more Harmonic minor references. Modal Interchange would be more in the Borrowing style... different organization with pretty standard choices. Vanilla etc... Doesn't mean I couldn't use all notes and chords etc... does mean many of them are embellishments without structural organization...
In my example... I was using Dorian as Reference with Modal Interchange, as compared to Borrowing.... The results don't really show up until you begin creating relationships and developing them. More possibilities of organizing Function. (Function is organization of harmonic movement, right, the guide lines)....yes boring and who cares.
Anyway... Yes I have collections of Chord Patterns, like the example I posted, which I developed years ago from arranging music.
Basically the only thing that might make them sound different would be my use of Blue Note Harmony. Which is really just use of Modal Interchange using Dorian and Melodic Minor. (and my performance skills)
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Great post. Thanks.
Trying to see if I follow....So, are you talking of the D7 chord? D dominant or harmonic minor etc. is the REFERENCE, but you're using modal interchange with that basic dominant function as the reference: D alt? Whereas G harm minor would be more like straight borrowing? Originally Posted by Reg
No. Very interesting. A lot of conversation about borrowing and subbing different sounds in Harris threads etc., but I think your perspective is unique. Originally Posted by Reg
written examples might really help contextualize the conversation... Originally Posted by Reg
Very interested in this. Probably a thread's worth of stuff there. I got a lot out of basic MM comping approaches from transcribing one of your comping videos. I need to do the same with blues approaches as well I guess. Originally Posted by Reg
You already have some great blues comping videos etc. If you have any pre-existing written material on that, it might serve as a kind of codex or bridge for discussion. :-)
Anyway. Thanks for the discussion.
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Hey Matt... so Basic functional harmony would be G aeolian with V7 chord from Harmonic Minor, D7 b9 b13 but natural 5th and 11th and no #9
So chord pattern might look like the new example if I added a lead line and created a chord pattern somewhat like 1st example. In general when I borrow harmonic organization from Maj/Min functional organization... I try and keep function or chord movement that is still based on Maj. or Ionian. The note collections can change but the notes that control Function or the chord movement stay the same.
Generally you don't just use one method of organizing harmony and choice of notes from which to pull from. You would have a few layers of harmonic organization, and use Form, rhythm etc... to organize the usage. So the Harmonic Rhythm... not just the basic definition, but expanded to imply the strong or important rhythmic attack locations within the Form. The result is you hear the most important or strongest implied Reference... Harmonic Reference and then on the weaker Harmonic layers you can have some other relationships going on.
Yes Subs with are developed relationships with a reference. You have a chord... then use Sub to play or improvise from... which becomes a Chord Pattern from Developing that sub relationship...
I need to split to Gig, I'll post more late tonight or tomorrow AM
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That's good. I should have gone about it systematically but I didn't. I picked up chords from wherever and made up a lot. Originally Posted by pingu
Here's a nice concise workout;
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It's always so interesting to hear how other players think. And the range! Some great players think in such complex ways - and some don't go anywhere near it, functioning well with no theory. Originally Posted by Reg
For myself, I can almost never get anything into my playing that I don't learn in the context of a song.
And, as a corollary, I almost never incorporate a new harmonic idea, unless I learn it with a great melodic idea.
So, for example, earlier today I heard a lick I really liked on the turnaround in Out of Nowhere. Really catchy.
So, I figured it out, and realized it was a D7b9 idea played with DHW. Just playing DHW did not create any magic (at least not when I do it), but with a really cool lick, descending roughly in minor thirds, it killed.
And, that's kind of where I end up with theory - it's foundational, but to make music, you have to add great melody and rhythm. And, if you were going to pick the best two out of three ....
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Mmmkay. You could pick the best ONE out of three as well I guess, if you're just arbitrarily picking. Why pick necessarily? Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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Yea anything can work, and most don't have the time or even the desire to figure it all out. I mean, the vid posted above is great... but very vanilla... at least to my ears... the voicings are based on inversions and rather than a melody on top, use of common tones, or simple movement... more from contrapuntal voice leading practice. It's still great, I dig it and its great practice to help become aware of the guitar fretboard....there are places where one can use the approach, it's been used for years. And generally the next step is to be able to change lead notes and voicings .... eventually developing and being able to hear the technique well enough to be able to perform the style and be able to interact while performing tunes.
But it's more from the memorize and perform approach, which works, it just takes a long time. And you end up with the bent neck and stare at the guitar disorder. Do or does anyone hear that as Jazz comping.
rpjazzguitar... yes very true. But making music does require some basic skills, or you end up playing almost memorized performances.
Do you hear the mixture of harmonic references used in Rick's comping example above. If he played the exercise in a rhythmic style with some organization... would you be able to solo over it. It would be difficult... the harmonic rhythm is all over the place, which results in somewhat of a harmonic mess... but with practice eventually... you could.
Anyway... comping is a little complex and if one doesn't take the time to become aware of the basic harmonic concepts and .... more important to beginners, become aware of the spatial aspects of Form, styles and Harmonic Rhythm.... it just doesn't seem to happen.
It really doesn't take that much time.... You don't need every voicing etc... but you do need to be able to apply what you know in different musical contexts and how to organize those applications.
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It's just an exercise and he only took 7 minutes to demonstrate it. Play it at speed. Play the notes of the chords slowly. Give a little context. Originally Posted by Reg
That's his style of teaching sometimes. It's fairly easy but not that easy. He does another one similar on Caribe. The minor 6th inversions can be tricky to play quickly at least for me.
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I've heard good solos played very simply, but with great time. Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
Better solos have great melody, great time and, often, great harmonic ideas.
Some people get there with theory, others don't. That was what I meant.
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So personally... it doesn't make any difference whether I'm playing melodic lines, soloing or comping. I'm still going through the same process.... everything has a harmonic reference. There are obviously exceptions... but I don't believe that's what the discussion is about, the exceptions.
So even if one believes they are not using theory... it might just be that they're just using their own personal theory based on memorization of something, even if it's tunes, licks or just what they're able to play. It would be pretty strange if someone just started playing any tune they could or any chords, scales, rhythms etc...
What makes something great? right.... If I started playing beautiful version of Eleanor Rigby, because that was the only thing I could play, while the rest of the band was locked in playing Shorter's Pinocchio.... I don't believe it would really be beautiful, or great.
If someone wants to learn to perform Jazz...or even just learn to play in a jazz style, it doesn't just happen because you want it to. You need to develop some technical skills... and also learn how to perform in a Jazz style.
Obviously no one needs to do anything.... but to actually tell someone.... hey you don't really need any theory, or don't worry about technical skills..... that's like telling someone to ride a bike with no brakes down a serious downhill course, even though their only biking experience was when they had a tricycle as a kid.
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ha. I'll be waking up at night imagining what's in those boxes... :-) Originally Posted by Reg
Reg, I'd be interested in anything re. chord patterns etc., old or new. Sounds like you had some previous stuff based on tunes maybe?
Anyway, I think comping is the easiest entry point toward understanding some of the harmonic concepts you talk about, for those curious, especially because of the visual aspect. Harmonic rhythm aspects, subs etc are all easier to SEE (in my opinion) - with comping.
Juxtaposition of the chord patterns in new contexts would be simpler I'd if we knew more of the voicings at the start I'd imagine.
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