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Today I was practising scales on my synth, I am trying to learn all the scales I use on guitar on the keyboard. I started jamming over a simple groove of one chord, Eb Major. I stumbled onto playing a B major scale over this and liked the sound as it sounded strikingly middle eastern. I immediately had a look to see what mode this could be off Eflat but came up with Phrygian. However this is a minor mode so why does it work over a major chord? Or am I just deaf and it sounds horrible!
It did wake me up to the fact that on guitar I am very rigid and follow set rules, on keys as I don't know what I am doing I keep finding odd things I like that are not "correct".
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01-30-2017 03:52 PM
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Same here. Last night playing some scales and chords on piano I hear things I can't hear on guitar. It never ends...
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Eb F G Ab Bb C D
B Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb (enharmonic)
#5 b7 1 b9 #9 11 5
Hmmm. That's a tough sell. I'm not saying it isn't possible. Theory is more descriptive than prescriptive. The only note that would require some serious attention is that Db(b7). It can be a passing tone, part of an enclosure, or an appogiaturra/approach tone.
Personally, l love b9s and #9s on major chords. Throw in a #11, which you get with a Bmaj scale, and you get some very interesting sounds on major chords. This won't work in all instances, especially where changes that spell out a strong harmony are involved. This would work really well with tunes that have altered changes already "baked in," or on modal tunes and "free" tunes.
If you like this, try some harmonic minor modes over major chords. Here's a good suggestion: try C Harmonic Minor over your Eb. You'll get some of those colors you have with Bmaj, but this C Harmomic Minor sits a lot easier.
What I have found is that this Harmonic Minor also opens up pathways to the ii7(Fmin). I start hearing a a iv7 relationship between F and C, all while playing over Ebmaj. Try this out. Let me know what you hear.
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Sorry, I botched one thing. The Bmaj scale doesn't get you a #11 over Eb.
On that note, you could argue that the 11 makes it sound more like a type of Sus chord. That ambiguity could contribute what you are describing.
Anyway, I don't think you're crazy or have weird hearing. I also find that noodling on piano I become less regimented and more aurally open.
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The B augmented scale would also work nice...B D Eb Gb G Bb..as it has Eb Maj and Min triads in it as well as G Maj and Min triads and you can build aug triads on each note of the scale..so you can experiment with going from major to minor on each of the three Major chords built in the scale B Eb G .. play 1357 arps over each other Eb over G G over B and so on..same with min over maj..have fun
Originally Posted by Babaluma
Coltrane used this kind of thinking a lot of his later work.."Giant Steps" and othersLast edited by wolflen; 01-30-2017 at 05:20 PM.
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Phrygian sounds great over major chords. The reason it sounds "right" is because it has a very long tradition . It is a very old world sound . It's in all kinds of old movies from the "ancient world". Sounds like Ben Hur , Lawrence Arabia etc. etc.
Very much a flamenco thing as well. just ask Chevy :Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-30-2017 at 07:26 PM.
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And chuck the keyboard for this stuff. For phrygian, pianists can just be jealous...
022100
033200
055400
You're welcome... :-)
Last edited by matt.guitarteacher; 01-30-2017 at 07:28 PM.
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I'd go phrygian dominant for the "Spanish sound." Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
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Just having a little fun there... I wouldn't know. I'm not really a legit Spanish player like Chevy is. :-) Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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It's correct in context. Originally Posted by Babaluma
Play C major with E as your root (E Phrygian: E F G A B C D E) over the flamenco progression Am - G - F - E and it's obvious. The G# of the E or E7 clashes with the natural G of the E Phrygian but no one seems to care.
The Phrygian mode can be used over sus chords. Play E Phrygian over E sus: (022200) and it works. It also works over sus4b9 chords (Esus4b9:033210) because of the natural C in it.
It works over E7sus too (but not E9 or E13).
But, as it's a minor mode, it's used over minor chords, i.e. Em and its variants Em7, Em11, Em69, etc, (but not Em9 because of the F#).
So you're not deaf and it doesn't sound horrible - in context.
Flamenco uses it, classical music uses it (Liszt, Rimsky-Korsakov), rock bands like it (Megadeth, Rainbow). But, jazz-wise, Miles Davis used it in his Spanish stuff, like this. I find it raucous but I'm sure some people love it :-)
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Modes with a m7th create a 7#9 sound over a major chord.
Phrygian adds b9 and b13.
A hybrid of phrygian and harmonic minor V:
E F G G# A B C D
Viewed from C major:
C D E F G G# A B
Viewed from A minor:
A B C D E F G G#
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I have the scales down. What would a good Phrygian chord progression be? Should I start with...
E A B
Should the 7s be
Emaj7 Amaj7 B7
???
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Well, again, the classic Phrygian progression is the flamenco progression, but also, again, that's really Phrygian dominant. So raised 3rd. It is literally called the "flamenco scale" by many who teach flamenco. Not straight Phrygian.
Otherwise, you might try something like minor, then major up a half step, and play Phrygian from the root of that minor chord (so Em-Fmaj, play E phrygian)
Nardis is a tune where you can tru some of this out, though the chords don't hang around forever...
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OK, so, Cmaj scale notes except for the B7?
Em7 - E phrygian
Fmaj7 - F lydian
B7 - B mix (Emaj)
Cmaj7
Am7
Fmaj7
Emaj7
Em7
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Well, you could, but I don't think finding one key that works and blowing sounds particularly jazzy.
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I have not read all th ethread... so maybe somebody mentioned it..
The oriental feel comes from oriental scales... 'Caravan' is the the example of using it over the major chord
So it's not quite Phrygian... though Spanish music this minor 2nd is connected with the influence of Islamic culture on Spain...
To be honest what they use in trad Spanish music I would not call Phrygian too...
If I were making a terminology I would have called it something like Spanish folk scale or whatever -
Its application in Spanish music is too specific and narrow...
And Phrygian scale or mode is just much more wider than that... take lots of modern jazz or Renaissance music... most of Prygian there does not sound Spanish at all))
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Point taken - so, what would sound jazzy? Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Not much, that's the point. If you listen to that Miles Davis vid he does lovely things with it, modally-speaking, but it's still what it is, basically the spanish sound. Originally Posted by tomems
As I said, it sounds less obvious over minor chords. You could slip it into a progression here and there for a different flavour.
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Yeah, a scale on it's own doesn't sound particularly jazzy...well, maybe melodic minor
So what I mean by playing "jazzy" is to play the changes. Highlight the important notes in each chord as part of your melodic line. Don't try searching for a scale that fits a whole (or even a big part of) a tune. If you're first starting out, I might suggest putting scales away completely, even.
As for Miles, he never recorded Nardis, did he?
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Okay, here's Bill Evans doing Nardis. He's using the Phrygian mode and the Gypsy Minor which is the harmonic minor with a #4. In Em that's E F# G A# B C D# E - that would go with B7, right? Originally Posted by tomems
Both these modes/scales are 'exotic' or what you will, but if you don't think this is jazzy I can't help you....!
Here's the lead sheet too:
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I have been a jazz beginner for 16 years! If I knew what I was doing, I wouldn't come to this site... Certainly chord tones are where it's at but that doesn't sound very Phrygian to me. I like the sound of an E chord with the b9 over it... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yeah, a scale on it's own doesn't sound particularly jazzy...well, maybe melodic minor
So what I mean by playing "jazzy" is to play the changes. Highlight the important notes in each chord as part of your melodic line. Don't try searching for a scale that fits a whole (or even a big part of) a tune. If you're first starting out, I might suggest putting scales away completely, even.
As for Miles, he never recorded Nardis, did he?
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That's the Gypsy scale. Originally Posted by fuzzthebee
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The Em, F, natural D, etc are all in the Phrygian, aren't they? Both scales are apparently used.
I'm getting bored with this...
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I think you should do it as you see fit. You don't have to copy anybody or follow any set 'rules'. If it sounds good to you that's good enough. Originally Posted by tomems
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Sounds cool. I often find playing keys opens me up to sounds not obvious on guitar. Originally Posted by Babaluma
Basically, trust you ears. You may end up writing music that sounds horrible to some people and great to others, but that's a given if you play jazz, so why worry? :-)
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